Elements Mafia 68 - by Kuroaitou

[Lunaris]

Coffeeditto (3) - rob77dp, Submachine, JonathanCrazyJ
Submachine (3) - Solaris, iancudorinmarian, Lunaris

Whether Linkcat wanted him dead or not, I don't see Coffee as scum. Just because a confirmed townie wanted a player dead, that doesn't make that player mafia.

This is interesting, because link also wanted you dead

Same idea applies to me.

[rob77dp]

Coffeeditto (3) - rob77dp, Submachine, JonathanCrazyJ
Submachine (3) - Solaris, iancudorinmarian, Lunaris

Whether Linkcat wanted him dead or not, I don't see Coffee as scum. Just because a confirmed townie wanted a player dead, that doesn't make that player mafia.

This is interesting, because link also wanted you dead

+1.

Luna - are you scumreading Sub, thougH?!??

[Lunaris]

I don't have an opinion on Submachine. I've hardly seen anything posted from him, but that could be because I've skimmed through the majority of the beginning of the game, considering how quickly posts were coming in and it was nearly impossible to keep up.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

Coffeeditto (2) - rob77dp, Submachine
Submachine (2) - Solaris, iancudorinmarian

The last time I favored opinion over survival didn't end well for me, so I'm evening out the odds.

Now I know that people will start bandwagoning on one stack or another, and that might actually be giving clues if Coffee eventually flips mafia. So, @rob: Keep track of who puts their votes on which pile from now on, because people on my stack will look very scummy if I get the majority vote.

Um, that's what every vote does.
People on coffee's pile will look scummy if you end up flipping mafia too lol, that's just a nothing statement.

I don't quite see the suspicion on Coffee, but I do think there is merit in starting with Link's most wanted immediately after his death.

Coffeeditto (3) - rob77dp, Submachine, JonathanCrazyJ
Submachine (2) - Solaris, iancudorinmarian

Once again, I ask, has anyone else been targeted with "Rescue" so far this game?

Light blue -- I pushed onto Coffee before any idea of Sub being the counter... therefore I refute your assertion I would look scummy if Sub ever flips and is Criminal.

Beige -- This feels just as role-hunty as the last time you asked. I don't think this question should be answered right now... can you safely provide supporting reasons or logic behind your asking it?

Also, I'll be frank on the fact that I'm highly likely to be very suspicious of any claim you're making of having been doctored last night. I see nothing in-thread indicating you would be a likely NK or Hitman target during the night so not sure why you would expect to have been doctored nor why a doctor in the game would be trying to "Rescue" you. That is, right now it comes across as you trying to hunt down or dig up who might have important protective roles.

There are only 3 things which it could be. Surveilance, in which case i don't care, doctor, in which case i don't care, or Hitman ability 2, in which case I care a LOT.
I thought, how can I find out? i can't ask "hey doctor(s), did you target me last night!?" as that would, you know, claim the doctor.
What I CAN do, is ask if anyone has been targeted by this before, cause, you know, if they had in night 1 they'd be dead now if it was the hitman ability. If they had and it was doctor ability, they wouldn't. I don't understand how saying you had been protected gives the mafia any information at all, but if one of the hitmen is mafia and has a "Religious Fanatic" flavour, "rescue" could feasibly mean "rescue from this mortal life"... in which case I'd kind of like doctor protection to nullify the kill... do you see?

[rob77dp]

Coffeeditto (2) - rob77dp, Submachine
Submachine (2) - Solaris, iancudorinmarian

The last time I favored opinion over survival didn't end well for me, so I'm evening out the odds.

Now I know that people will start bandwagoning on one stack or another, and that might actually be giving clues if Coffee eventually flips mafia. So, @rob: Keep track of who puts their votes on which pile from now on, because people on my stack will look very scummy if I get the majority vote.

Um, that's what every vote does.
People on coffee's pile will look scummy if you end up flipping mafia too lol, that's just a nothing statement.

I don't quite see the suspicion on Coffee, but I do think there is merit in starting with Link's most wanted immediately after his death.

Coffeeditto (3) - rob77dp, Submachine, JonathanCrazyJ
Submachine (2) - Solaris, iancudorinmarian

Once again, I ask, has anyone else been targeted with "Rescue" so far this game?

Light blue -- I pushed onto Coffee before any idea of Sub being the counter... therefore I refute your assertion I would look scummy if Sub ever flips and is Criminal.

Beige -- This feels just as role-hunty as the last time you asked. I don't think this question should be answered right now... can you safely provide supporting reasons or logic behind your asking it?

Also, I'll be frank on the fact that I'm highly likely to be very suspicious of any claim you're making of having been doctored last night. I see nothing in-thread indicating you would be a likely NK or Hitman target during the night so not sure why you would expect to have been doctored nor why a doctor in the game would be trying to "Rescue" you. That is, right now it comes across as you trying to hunt down or dig up who might have important protective roles.

There are only 3 things which it could be. Surveilance, in which case i don't care, doctor, in which case i don't care, or Hitman ability 2, in which case I care a LOT.
I thought, how can I find out? i can't ask "hey doctor(s), did you target me last night!?" as that would, you know, claim the doctor.
What I CAN do, is ask if anyone has been targeted by this before, cause, you know, if they had in night 1 they'd be dead now if it was the hitman ability. If they had and it was doctor ability, they wouldn't. I don't understand how saying you had been protected gives the mafia any information at all, but if one of the hitmen is mafia and has a "Religious Fanatic" flavour, "rescue" could feasibly mean "rescue from this mortal life"... in which case I'd kind of like doctor protection to nullify the kill... do you see?

That additional explanation does help. I still find it hunt-y but my concerns are assuaged a little given your response. You did not, however, address my part about why you think you would have been targeted by abilities -- whether saving, killing, or otherwise. I'm not saying that precludes you having been targeted but it does give me hesitation at thinking you have pro-town motives in mind asking these things.

[Submachine]

The last time I favored opinion over survival didn't end well for me, so I'm evening out the odds.

Source please.

The source: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/forum-game-archive/elements-mafia-61-by-linkcat/msg1238288/#msg1238288

I decided to vote on an actual scumread instead of piling on the second highest vote. I then went to sleep and next day I was dead. Never doing that again.

(Trivia: The two cases are very similar: I'm accused for similar reasons with a similar vote situation on Day 1 while I am Town in both cases. I also nailed a mafia perfectly with my vote in that game, but noone listened to me.)

Also an interesting thing I found while looking for source! Some might remember these posts:

DC only gets annoyed by metagaming and such when it directly hurts his goals.

[Citation Needed]

Bit baseless as it stands, fam

DC only gets annoyed by metagaming and such when it directly hurts his goals.

SOURCE or reference, please?

First, here is your reference, rob. Straight from Mafia 61:

The way I see it, either this stupid tactic works or it doesn't.

If it does, Submachine's being a metagaming piece of shit and this compromises the integrity of the mafia. If that is so, I quit.
If it doesn't, Submachine just wasted everyone's time.

Funnily enough, he had a very similar reaction in this game, but the proof was deleted by mods: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/forum-games/elements-mafia-68-by-kuroaitou/msg1258636/#msg1258636

So that's my point on scum!DC. BUT! Look who's protecting him first. It was Espithel, and Espithel was mafia.

[Solaris]

Coffeeditto (4) - rob77dp, Submachine, JonathanCrazyJ, Solaris
Submachine (2) -  iancudorinmarian, Lunaris

Sub dies later. Today, we carry out dying wishes. (I've vote flipped onto Coffee before, as well, on the same day w3 is lynched. This target isn't exactly out of left field for me, and it seems nobody wants on my morethantinfoil train.

[Submachine]

First, here is your reference, rob. Straight from Mafia 61:

The way I see it, either this stupid tactic works or it doesn't.

If it does, Submachine's being a metagaming piece of shit and this compromises the integrity of the mafia. If that is so, I quit.
If it doesn't, Submachine just wasted everyone's time.

Funnily enough, he had a very similar reaction in this game, but the proof was deleted by mods: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/forum-games/elements-mafia-68-by-kuroaitou/msg1258636/#msg1258636

So that's my point on scum!DC. BUT! Look who's protecting him first. It was Espithel, and Espithel was mafia.

I forgot to mention, but DC was mafia in that game. This information is needed to make a connection between Mafia 61 DC and current DC.

[rob77dp]

I don't have an opinion on Submachine. I've hardly seen anything posted from him, but that could be because I've skimmed through the majority of the beginning of the game, considering how quickly posts were coming in and it was nearly impossible to keep up.

Wow, if you're Town then that is one heavy-duty town-read you have on Coffee if you're willing to vote his counter wagon.

What I mean is, if you're Town you should (reasonably) be unsure of other player alignments other than "reads" your having on them. If you're unsure of Sub and Coffee's alignment _and_ have no read on Sub then to vote like this implies you're reasonably comfortable reading/thinking that Coffee is Town.

It looks like you're voting to save Coffee which is more commonly done by scum/Criminals looking to save their partners (where alignment is known by the player because that is how being scum works) than it is by town White Knight-ing a town-read.

[JonathanCrazyJ]

how should i know why i was targeted? Some people thought I seemed scummy, so i could have been targeted by a town hitman. I have a decentish reputation as a mafia player, so maybe people thought I'd be a likely early NK target.

[Solaris]

I don't have an opinion on Submachine. I've hardly seen anything posted from him, but that could be because I've skimmed through the majority of the beginning of the game, considering how quickly posts were coming in and it was nearly impossible to keep up.

Wow, if you're Town then that is one heavy-duty town-read you have on Coffee if you're willing to vote his counter wagon.

What I mean is, if you're Town you should (reasonably) be unsure of other player alignments other than "reads" your having on them. If you're unsure of Sub and Coffee's alignment _and_ have no read on Sub then to vote like this implies you're reasonably comfortable reading/thinking that Coffee is Town.

It looks like you're voting to save Coffee which is more commonly done by scum/Criminals looking to save their partners (where alignment is known by the player because that is how being scum works) than it is by town White Knight-ing a town-read.

keep in mind that Maf saying (confirmed to Maf) town/int is town is a viable strat, although somewhat weak, for trying to gain credibility. think this one warrants investigation even if Coffee =/= Crim

[rob77dp]

* rob77dp chuckles with Sub

Yeah, Mafia 61... where I was scum too on a clean sweep winning side.

Basically, that is the basis of an earlier post (yesterday?) from me regarding DC -- he seems similarly emotional but DIS-similarly agenda'd this game. What you're pointing out about DC's play is what I am lightly/slightly town-reading about him so far.