Elements Mafia 68 - by Kuroaitou

[rob77dp]

I still think Intel should also be considered enemies. Not as bad as the Criminals, but not really on our side either. If they win, town loses. (unless we get all the criminals before they get all their info)

Intel, per rules, cannot win until end of the game. That means either Criminal side or Town side has won the game AND Intel has the required survivor and list of roles. You're wrong on your take here, ian.

[UTAlan]

I still think Intel should also be considered enemies. Not as bad as the Criminals, but not really on our side either. If they win, town loses. (unless we get all the criminals before they get all their info)

Not quite. Intel winning has nothing to do with whether Town wins.

[Kuroaitou]

I still think Intel should also be considered enemies. Not as bad as the Criminals, but not really on our side either. If they win, town loses. (unless we get all the criminals before they get all their info)

Intel, per rules, cannot win until end of the game. That means either Criminal side or Town side has won the game AND Intel has the required survivor and list of roles. You're wrong on your take here, ian.

I still think Intel should also be considered enemies. Not as bad as the Criminals, but not really on our side either. If they win, town loses. (unless we get all the criminals before they get all their info)

Not quite. Intel winning has nothing to do with whether Town wins.

Both of these responses are correct by the way. Sorry that you can't read misunderstood their win condition ian.

[rob77dp]

I think it is very unlikely that ian is Intel.

You either believe he is intentionally being this way about their win-con _or_ that he is asking and approaching like this publicly because he doesn't know when Intel!ian would ask via another medium available how his own win-con works before going all silly with it publicly.

That is:
A. ian is faking this. <-- I don't think ian fits this kind of FPS mold.
or
B. ian is not Intel. <-- much more likely.

[UTAlan]

* Available evidence a possible Intel member acted against town (not to mean they have to try to help town win, but I would be game to lynch an Intel member such as this)

I believe this should be taken on a case by case basis. How did they act against town? Can they do it again? For example:

* Did they sway votes to save mafia? Is this something we can defend against the next time?
* Did they use a kill ability against a known town? Do they have any uses left?
* Did they use a non-kill ability to ensure a town was killed (i.e. blocking bodyguard)? Can they do it again?

Parity is huge. Lynching a known non-criminal can negate the advantage we've gotten to this point. It's gotta be really worth it, imo.

[rob77dp]

Alright, all that follows is 100% within confines of the game. It is probably going to come across a bit harsh but I am blunt when I play this game so bare true thoughts of mine are being conveyed here.

I'm super confused as to how Espithel even died in the first place unless another member of the criminal team killed him intentionally

Anyways, here are my current reads, whatever they may be worth.

rob77dp - Giving off slight scum vibes imo, due to his immediate attempts to take charge of the game.
Linkcat - Unsure how to read Linkcat really, as I've skimmed through the majority of the posts this mafia. However, his support of No Lynch on the first day leads me to feel a very slight town alignment here. 
UTAlan - Strong town vibes. His claim of bodyguard is incredibly believable.
DoubleCapitals - Very slight scum vibes here due to the immediate reaction to lynch Sub just because of some invisitext, but I also know DC well enough on a personal level to know that this most likely is just due to not liking invisitext in general.
Coffeeditto - Not really enough posts that I've seen from him to make a read at this point. Neutral.
Solaris - Scum lean here. The idea of voting for himself was incredibly confusing, as I don't see any secondary abilities that could benefit from it.
Submachine - Town vibes due to Espithel dying.

This is all I have for now.. will post more later on.

I read this last night, slept on it, and reviewed it again this morning -- finding myself seeing it either scummy or not-very-good-town in each instance.

1. Scum!rob would never want to be in charge of the game... in-charge people get targeted with abilities and have their past actions and posts brought up later in the game -- scum!rob would not want that.

2. Did you look in at all to the flipped Criminal's activity and posting from Day 0 + Night 1 to impact your list? Seems odd that it only came up related to Sub...

3. UTA is not claiming BG which contradicts a lot of what you town-read UTA for. He has other things going for him though - I'd like to see you update that read on UTA because he has a fairly large volume of posts so far that you ignored in favor of reading based on a "credible claim" that doesn't exist.

4. Coffee -- has equal qty of posts as DC and more posts than godisnowonline, mathman101, fabian771, dawn to dusk, and killsdazombies but you only include Coffee for this neutral read based on low posts... why none of this other group?

5. Having Solaris as what appears to be your strongest scum-read based solely on a Day 0 self-vote is pretty flimsy.

6. I have no idea how you arrive at town-read on Sub based only on Espithel dying at Night 1... ??

7. Link is the only player you wanted to read based on Day 0 no lynch stances or opinions - and that it is town slant for it? Something feels off about that (not that No Lynch stances cannot be held by town players but rather how you used it to read only Link and the other aspects of it here).

Summary:
There is a lot about your reads that feels forces, faked, or simply flat considering the overall nature and content of the post. It is not concrete or a lean/read yet but I get a scum feeling about it. I'll be monitoring if you're able to manage some more posts this Day phase (sure hope you do...) that ring differently than what I see here.

[rob77dp]

* Available evidence a possible Intel member acted against town (not to mean they have to try to help town win, but I would be game to lynch an Intel member such as this)

I believe this should be taken on a case by case basis. How did they act against town? Can they do it again? For example:

* Did they sway votes to save mafia? Is this something we can defend against the next time?
* Did they use a kill ability against a known town? Do they have any uses left?
* Did they use a non-kill ability to ensure a town was killed (i.e. blocking bodyguard)? Can they do it again?

Parity is huge. Lynching a known non-criminal can negate the advantage we've gotten to this point. It's gotta be really worth it, imo.

If an Intel member/team knows the roles of a mafia player/Criminal then uses that knowledge to sway or affect lynches away from that Criminal and such activity manages to come to light in the thread I am 100% pushing for that Criminals lynch followed by either another high-likelihood Criminal _or_ that Intel members lynch.

Basically, no hard-and-fast stance toward Intel party right now beyond:
1. If I feel Intel, whether known or hidden/suspected, is hurting my win-con then I would not avoid targeting them (lynch, abilities, etc).
2. If I feel Intel, whether known or hidden/suspected, is _not_hurting_ my win-con then I would press elsewhere into scum-reads and possible Criminals.

* My win-con = town out-living Criminals... Criminals-dead-with-town-still-having-players-alive.

Spoiler for Hidden:

OK, trying to let the thread rest for a bit now...

[Solaris]

it feels forced/fake because the reads list was forced by a oush from someone in the first place IIRC

[worldwideweb3]

Alright, all that follows is 100% within confines of the game. It is probably going to come across a bit harsh but I am blunt when I play this game so bare true thoughts of mine are being conveyed here.

I'm super confused as to how Espithel even died in the first place unless another member of the criminal team killed him intentionally

Anyways, here are my current reads, whatever they may be worth.

rob77dp - Giving off slight scum vibes imo, due to his immediate attempts to take charge of the game.
Linkcat - Unsure how to read Linkcat really, as I've skimmed through the majority of the posts this mafia. However, his support of No Lynch on the first day leads me to feel a very slight town alignment here. 
UTAlan - Strong town vibes. His claim of bodyguard is incredibly believable.
DoubleCapitals - Very slight scum vibes here due to the immediate reaction to lynch Sub just because of some invisitext, but I also know DC well enough on a personal level to know that this most likely is just due to not liking invisitext in general.
Coffeeditto - Not really enough posts that I've seen from him to make a read at this point. Neutral.
Solaris - Scum lean here. The idea of voting for himself was incredibly confusing, as I don't see any secondary abilities that could benefit from it.
Submachine - Town vibes due to Espithel dying.

This is all I have for now.. will post more later on.

I read this last night, slept on it, and reviewed it again this morning -- finding myself seeing it either scummy or not-very-good-town in each instance.

1. Scum!rob would never want to be in charge of the game... in-charge people get targeted with abilities and have their past actions and posts brought up later in the game -- scum!rob would not want that.

2. Did you look in at all to the flipped Criminal's activity and posting from Day 0 + Night 1 to impact your list? Seems odd that it only came up related to Sub...

3. UTA is not claiming BG which contradicts a lot of what you town-read UTA for. He has other things going for him though - I'd like to see you update that read on UTA because he has a fairly large volume of posts so far that you ignored in favor of reading based on a "credible claim" that doesn't exist.

4. Coffee -- has equal qty of posts as DC and more posts than godisnowonline, mathman101, fabian771, dawn to dusk, and killsdazombies but you only include Coffee for this neutral read based on low posts... why none of this other group?

5. Having Solaris as what appears to be your strongest scum-read based solely on a Day 0 self-vote is pretty flimsy.

6. I have no idea how you arrive at town-read on Sub based only on Espithel dying at Night 1... ??

7. Link is the only player you wanted to read based on Day 0 no lynch stances or opinions - and that it is town slant for it? Something feels off about that (not that No Lynch stances cannot be held by town players but rather how you used it to read only Link and the other aspects of it here).

Summary:
There is a lot about your reads that feels forces, faked, or simply flat considering the overall nature and content of the post. It is not concrete or a lean/read yet but I get a scum feeling about it. I'll be monitoring if you're able to manage some more posts this Day phase (sure hope you do...) that ring differently than what I see here.

The scum rob i played with was very active and took charge that game.

[Solaris]

Alright, all that follows is 100% within confines of the game. It is probably going to come across a bit harsh but I am blunt when I play this game so bare true thoughts of mine are being conveyed here.

I'm super confused as to how Espithel even died in the first place unless another member of the criminal team killed him intentionally

Anyways, here are my current reads, whatever they may be worth.

rob77dp - Giving off slight scum vibes imo, due to his immediate attempts to take charge of the game.
Linkcat - Unsure how to read Linkcat really, as I've skimmed through the majority of the posts this mafia. However, his support of No Lynch on the first day leads me to feel a very slight town alignment here. 
UTAlan - Strong town vibes. His claim of bodyguard is incredibly believable.
DoubleCapitals - Very slight scum vibes here due to the immediate reaction to lynch Sub just because of some invisitext, but I also know DC well enough on a personal level to know that this most likely is just due to not liking invisitext in general.
Coffeeditto - Not really enough posts that I've seen from him to make a read at this point. Neutral.
Solaris - Scum lean here. The idea of voting for himself was incredibly confusing, as I don't see any secondary abilities that could benefit from it.
Submachine - Town vibes due to Espithel dying.

This is all I have for now.. will post more later on.

I read this last night, slept on it, and reviewed it again this morning -- finding myself seeing it either scummy or not-very-good-town in each instance.

1. Scum!rob would never want to be in charge of the game... in-charge people get targeted with abilities and have their past actions and posts brought up later in the game -- scum!rob would not want that.

2. Did you look in at all to the flipped Criminal's activity and posting from Day 0 + Night 1 to impact your list? Seems odd that it only came up related to Sub...

3. UTA is not claiming BG which contradicts a lot of what you town-read UTA for. He has other things going for him though - I'd like to see you update that read on UTA because he has a fairly large volume of posts so far that you ignored in favor of reading based on a "credible claim" that doesn't exist.

4. Coffee -- has equal qty of posts as DC and more posts than godisnowonline, mathman101, fabian771, dawn to dusk, and killsdazombies but you only include Coffee for this neutral read based on low posts... why none of this other group?

5. Having Solaris as what appears to be your strongest scum-read based solely on a Day 0 self-vote is pretty flimsy.

6. I have no idea how you arrive at town-read on Sub based only on Espithel dying at Night 1... ??

7. Link is the only player you wanted to read based on Day 0 no lynch stances or opinions - and that it is town slant for it? Something feels off about that (not that No Lynch stances cannot be held by town players but rather how you used it to read only Link and the other aspects of it here).

Summary:
There is a lot about your reads that feels forces, faked, or simply flat considering the overall nature and content of the post. It is not concrete or a lean/read yet but I get a scum feeling about it. I'll be monitoring if you're able to manage some more posts this Day phase (sure hope you do...) that ring differently than what I see here.

The scum rob i played with was very active and took charge that game.

yeah I play the same way as scum, its not an uncommon thing to do

[UTAlan]

Spoiler for rob's analysis of Luna's reads list:

Alright, all that follows is 100% within confines of the game. It is probably going to come across a bit harsh but I am blunt when I play this game so bare true thoughts of mine are being conveyed here.

I'm super confused as to how Espithel even died in the first place unless another member of the criminal team killed him intentionally

Anyways, here are my current reads, whatever they may be worth.

rob77dp - Giving off slight scum vibes imo, due to his immediate attempts to take charge of the game.
Linkcat - Unsure how to read Linkcat really, as I've skimmed through the majority of the posts this mafia. However, his support of No Lynch on the first day leads me to feel a very slight town alignment here. 
UTAlan - Strong town vibes. His claim of bodyguard is incredibly believable.
DoubleCapitals - Very slight scum vibes here due to the immediate reaction to lynch Sub just because of some invisitext, but I also know DC well enough on a personal level to know that this most likely is just due to not liking invisitext in general.
Coffeeditto - Not really enough posts that I've seen from him to make a read at this point. Neutral.
Solaris - Scum lean here. The idea of voting for himself was incredibly confusing, as I don't see any secondary abilities that could benefit from it.
Submachine - Town vibes due to Espithel dying.

This is all I have for now.. will post more later on.

I read this last night, slept on it, and reviewed it again this morning -- finding myself seeing it either scummy or not-very-good-town in each instance.

1. Scum!rob would never want to be in charge of the game... in-charge people get targeted with abilities and have their past actions and posts brought up later in the game -- scum!rob would not want that.

2. Did you look in at all to the flipped Criminal's activity and posting from Day 0 + Night 1 to impact your list? Seems odd that it only came up related to Sub...

3. UTA is not claiming BG which contradicts a lot of what you town-read UTA for. He has other things going for him though - I'd like to see you update that read on UTA because he has a fairly large volume of posts so far that you ignored in favor of reading based on a "credible claim" that doesn't exist.

4. Coffee -- has equal qty of posts as DC and more posts than godisnowonline, mathman101, fabian771, dawn to dusk, and killsdazombies but you only include Coffee for this neutral read based on low posts... why none of this other group?

5. Having Solaris as what appears to be your strongest scum-read based solely on a Day 0 self-vote is pretty flimsy.

6. I have no idea how you arrive at town-read on Sub based only on Espithel dying at Night 1... ??

7. Link is the only player you wanted to read based on Day 0 no lynch stances or opinions - and that it is town slant for it? Something feels off about that (not that No Lynch stances cannot be held by town players but rather how you used it to read only Link and the other aspects of it here).

Summary:
There is a lot about your reads that feels forces, faked, or simply flat considering the overall nature and content of the post. It is not concrete or a lean/read yet but I get a scum feeling about it. I'll be monitoring if you're able to manage some more posts this Day phase (sure hope you do...) that ring differently than what I see here.

I feel similarly, though she did disclaim prior to posting this that she wasn't confident in her ability to read. So @Luna: Take his feedback as constructive criticism. Use it to find where you need to defend your reads with better reasoning, but also recognize where your reasons don't add up to your read and you need to abandon or adjust it.

[worldwideweb3]

Alright, all that follows is 100% within confines of the game. It is probably going to come across a bit harsh but I am blunt when I play this game so bare true thoughts of mine are being conveyed here.

I'm super confused as to how Espithel even died in the first place unless another member of the criminal team killed him intentionally

Anyways, here are my current reads, whatever they may be worth.

rob77dp - Giving off slight scum vibes imo, due to his immediate attempts to take charge of the game.
Linkcat - Unsure how to read Linkcat really, as I've skimmed through the majority of the posts this mafia. However, his support of No Lynch on the first day leads me to feel a very slight town alignment here. 
UTAlan - Strong town vibes. His claim of bodyguard is incredibly believable.
DoubleCapitals - Very slight scum vibes here due to the immediate reaction to lynch Sub just because of some invisitext, but I also know DC well enough on a personal level to know that this most likely is just due to not liking invisitext in general.
Coffeeditto - Not really enough posts that I've seen from him to make a read at this point. Neutral.
Solaris - Scum lean here. The idea of voting for himself was incredibly confusing, as I don't see any secondary abilities that could benefit from it.
Submachine - Town vibes due to Espithel dying.

This is all I have for now.. will post more later on.

I read this last night, slept on it, and reviewed it again this morning -- finding myself seeing it either scummy or not-very-good-town in each instance.

1. Scum!rob would never want to be in charge of the game... in-charge people get targeted with abilities and have their past actions and posts brought up later in the game -- scum!rob would not want that.

2. Did you look in at all to the flipped Criminal's activity and posting from Day 0 + Night 1 to impact your list? Seems odd that it only came up related to Sub...

3. UTA is not claiming BG which contradicts a lot of what you town-read UTA for. He has other things going for him though - I'd like to see you update that read on UTA because he has a fairly large volume of posts so far that you ignored in favor of reading based on a "credible claim" that doesn't exist.

4. Coffee -- has equal qty of posts as DC and more posts than godisnowonline, mathman101, fabian771, dawn to dusk, and killsdazombies but you only include Coffee for this neutral read based on low posts... why none of this other group?

5. Having Solaris as what appears to be your strongest scum-read based solely on a Day 0 self-vote is pretty flimsy.

6. I have no idea how you arrive at town-read on Sub based only on Espithel dying at Night 1... ??

7. Link is the only player you wanted to read based on Day 0 no lynch stances or opinions - and that it is town slant for it? Something feels off about that (not that No Lynch stances cannot be held by town players but rather how you used it to read only Link and the other aspects of it here).

Summary:
There is a lot about your reads that feels forces, faked, or simply flat considering the overall nature and content of the post. It is not concrete or a lean/read yet but I get a scum feeling about it. I'll be monitoring if you're able to manage some more posts this Day phase (sure hope you do...) that ring differently than what I see here.

The scum rob i played with was very active and took charge that game.

yeah I play the same way as scum, its not an uncommon thing to do

I was referring to point 1 of robs....