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Offline Zawadx

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234836#msg1234836
« Reply #624 on: June 06, 2016, 05:44:16 am »

Inactivity also hurt this game a great deal. I think something should be done to lessen the amount of inactivity in future games.


For me, one of the main reasons of being inactive was the fact that I was a vanilla. As a mafia power gamer, that feels like you're worthless and just there to be lynched at some point. I tried to circumvent that with role madness in my mafia, but that is pretty much guaranteed to be imbalanced.

Do other people feel the same way about vanillas? What should we do about it?
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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234837#msg1234837
« Reply #625 on: June 06, 2016, 05:49:29 am »
I honestly came into this mafia thinking "Let's do things and be good and stuff!" then computer died for over a week and when I came back the topic had 40+ pages. I still didn't know who the rest of the mafia were until Root just posted it.

Vanilla is a fine role, however I can see how it would be boring. The problem is making 20+ roles that are each interesting and innovative to use. Passives would be boring in this sense, as would 1U abilities going by this logic. But if everyone had EoR or even 4U abilities, that would make for a dull mafia.

I had previously been toying around with a concept before I retracted from hosting, but it would be hard to balance, and might not be well taken by a small community like this.

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234840#msg1234840
« Reply #626 on: June 06, 2016, 06:28:21 am »
I think vanillas could still push a game with enough activity. It's just that our mafia is not active enough to do such a thing, which leads to more inactivity, leading down to a downward spiral.

Giving roles to everyone seems to be the easy solution to this. It might be imbalanced, and there needs to be a way to protect mafia from a mass roleclaim, but I guess it already became the culture for our mafias. I want to try hard in the next mafia to incite more activity, as one more try to see if we can run a game with a lot of vanilla (if that's the case for the next mafia).

Edit because game is over anyway: I found it weird that Ginyu was not straight up lynched after Solaris claimed. Also, I got lynched some time after handing a Diary to Espithel, which I could have claimed on if activity didn't simply die that day. Oh well.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 06:33:35 am by Sera »

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234845#msg1234845
« Reply #627 on: June 06, 2016, 11:15:45 am »
So I followed this game front to back, although as a non-participant my perspective of the game's events will likely be incomplete.

Sigh... *rolls eyes at lazy town* I gave you the PoE before I died!  ?_?

I'm going to be a bit more blunt here - what I see is that after rob's efforts, and a few other players', town should have won. Instead, as in many recent mafias, all mafia had to do was pick off the active players and everyone else disappeared. More on this later.

I feel this mafia was fairly unbalanced in favor of the mafia. The ability to steal items that ruin the ability to lynch mafia members and items that kill people instantly is entirely too powerful. Town stood the best chance this game if they used these items in night 1, in all honesty.

Upon the game's start, I believed mafia's chances were roughly 55-60%, with the sway being for the reason you stated.

Quote
Inactivity also hurt this game a great deal. I think something should be done to lessen the amount of inactivity in future games.

Agreed. I'm strongly in favor of modkills for inactivity being a more common rule here. As said above, town has lost far too many games recently just due to lack of activity.

For me, one of the main reasons of being inactive was the fact that I was a vanilla. As a mafia power gamer, that feels like you're worthless and just there to be lynched at some point. I tried to circumvent that with role madness in my mafia, but that is pretty much guaranteed to be imbalanced.

Do other people feel the same way about vanillas? What should we do about it?

I hate being vanilla. I would rather be literally any role than vanilla, even if it would be detrimental to my team, myself and my playstyles, etc.

Having said that, even if you are vanilla, you do have a job in the game. Your job is to use logic, intuition, and reasoning to find mafia and win the game. Players should be doing this, at least at a basic level, regardless of role, vanilla or otherwise. Using your role should only be a small part of the game - most of the game should be finding the mafia by deciphering scumtells and using deductive reason.

If you feel worthless as a vanilla, you're ignoring a core part of gameplay.

Also, vanilla roles are a vital part of any properly balanced mafia with certain investigate roles. Mass roleclaims are the only thing even remotely close to inactivity in terms of detriment to the average quality of play in this community. I'd argue it's worse.

Vanilla roles aren't really an issue here at all. It's a scapegoat for the real issue...

Giving roles to everyone seems to be the easy solution to this. It might be imbalanced, and there needs to be a way to protect mafia from a mass roleclaim, but I guess it already became the culture for our mafias. I want to try hard in the next mafia to incite more activity, as one more try to see if we can run a game with a lot of vanilla (if that's the case for the next mafia).

...the culture of mafia here badly needs to change, anyways. In a lot of the recent town losses to inactivity, it's because mafia kills the hardcore players, leaving casual players to finish the game. The gap between hardcore and casual feels really deep, and a lot of the issues here stem from it.

I think that's a fundamental issue that a few fixes might help with, but they won't change entirely. The people need to change - we have to get everyone on the same page as far as what the heart of mafia here should be. Either the people who play casually need to leave, or learn to play more in depth, or we need to decide that mafia is more casual and build them as such, or some compromise of the two. That's a long-term solution but I think it's needed.

Edit because game is over anyway: I found it weird that Ginyu was not straight up lynched after Solaris claimed.

I agree. From my perspective, that was when the game shifted strongly to mafia's advantage.
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Offline Ginyu

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234848#msg1234848
« Reply #628 on: June 06, 2016, 11:43:30 am »
For what is worth: I asked Solaris not to put me in this list, believing town might not expect him to pack two civvies. Well ~

I have to agree that inactivity is a huge factor in this game. After playing as very active mafia member in 51, this time I tried to play the (unforunately) very common hiding strategy, and although I was found more or less, it payed off far too long. Apart from modkills as a hard solution, the players must change as dd96 said. If people stay silent, force them to speak. Use logic and try to analyze posts of other people, while always keeping an eye on non-posters. rob and Demagog were both Vanilla and able to do a lot, Winston however hasn't done anything until the counterclaim, and iirc, he hasn't even posted a list of who he confirmed until then. And as you see: Town was close to win this.

That does not mean that I am opposed to having more non-vanilla roles. I tried to keep vanillas as away as possible in my concept. But I want people to realize that, even as vanilla, you can play a major part.

One thing I wonder is still: rob, how came that you were so sure in dawn being town? He had the exact same behaviour like me - posting nothing while being more or less active in chat. During the game, I thought that me usually being very active could be a factor, but it seems like that wasn't your reasoning.
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Offline rob77dp

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234882#msg1234882
« Reply #629 on: June 06, 2016, 03:46:36 pm »
I am appalled that players would go inactive simply because "they are vanilla". Are they playing mafia to play/fun/mind-exercise or just wanting a power role to run around with? Mafia is a game if wits, deduction, and misleading. Knowing your role is Vanilla Town and being inactive because "I'm not a power role" is directly detrimental to your own team and is something a good mafia game player would not intentionally do or allow to happen.

Personally, being a vanilla town is empowering -- you can take action and post in the thread in ways that draw attention because if you're mislynched or Night Killed town has only lost a voice and not the power role. For example, Winston last game not posting much during the game is fine if the ability is being used every night because you lay low and mafia lets you be for the most part. Notice Dema, Link, and I were early game NK targets (nod again to Espi for that save!) as voices in the thread spouting ideas trying to genuinely help Town solve and win.

What can be done about inactive town? Step one - us players need to put on big boy pants and not chicken-out because our Role PM includes "vanilla". Step two - if you have a power role, USE IT! Step three - repeat 1 & 2.

-snip-

One thing I wonder is still: rob, how came that you were so sure in dawn being town? He had the exact same behaviour like me - posting nothing while being more or less active in chat. During the game, I thought that me usually being very active could be a factor, but it seems like that wasn't your reasoning.
I knew from being in chat that dawn was legit having PC / internet troubles. Also, when dawn is mafia he plays angles and is non-invisible based on my limited sample size of his previously. AKA - legit excuse + meta read.


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Offline Espithel

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234883#msg1234883
« Reply #630 on: June 06, 2016, 04:19:50 pm »
Notice Dema, Link, and I were early game NK targets (nod again to Espi for that save!) as voices in the thread spouting ideas trying to genuinely help Town solve and win.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234909#msg1234909
« Reply #631 on: June 06, 2016, 08:13:24 pm »
I was vanilla and I tried to help town, but ended up being detrimental to town because I was lynched so early, taking away a town lynch and not being able to provide any information due to how early in the game it was. So at the end the only way for me to try to be helpful to town was list my deductions and how confident I was on them. I assumed everyone would know that my deductions were crap because I had only a day of information to make deductions from.

Quote
And whilst, yes, it would be nice if we heard a good paragraph explaining each of his opinions, but this is CR and getting one explanation out of him is a miracle. So I just picked the one I felt was the most interesting.


I explain stuff all the time, people just TL;DR it and I didn't have much time at the moment when I wrote the death post and couldn't log on again before the deadline.
Anyway here's your miracle: My suspicion on rob being mafia was because he didn't seem too open to ideas that wasn't his and I thought he was trying to play an active mafia style - like Ginyu did before. He also seemed like he was trying to run votes, which is a scumtell to me.

I can't remember why I thought jippy was civvy. I am all for lynching Link as I just don't like his mafia style personally but my bias aside, I actually thought he was civvie for reasons I cant remember (but I was still pretty darn on the fence about him, having only given him 51% confidence he was civvie) I thought Demagog was civvie because he seemed overly ambitious to help the civvies and said stuff that I felt was outright dumb for a mafia to say.

Please don't say stuff like this again.. it's degrading.
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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234960#msg1234960
« Reply #632 on: June 07, 2016, 02:03:05 pm »
I believe that the mafia format I've come up with will alleviate most of the issues listed here. I don't believe I will use secondary roles to help with it either. My only concern is if people will sign up.

Is it a good decision to have penalties for inactivity? I'm talking about something implemented by the games coordinator, such as suspending someone from a future game or preventing them from hosting. I could see it backfiring if people go inactive anyway. It might just kill mafia here completely.

All in all, I think people just need to start caring.

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234970#msg1234970
« Reply #633 on: June 07, 2016, 03:23:55 pm »
I believe that the mafia format I've come up with will alleviate most of the issues listed here. I don't believe I will use secondary roles to help with it either. My only concern is if people will sign up.

Is it a good decision to have penalties for inactivity? I'm talking about something implemented by the games coordinator, such as suspending someone from a future game or preventing them from hosting. I could see it backfiring if people go inactive anyway. It might just kill mafia here completely.

All in all, I think people just need to start caring.
The problem with this idea - I think - is that several silent people lack the talent to be active, or it's just their "playstyle" to stay silent. We used to nudge the inactive people to post more during games, but the general reply was that they have no idea what to post. Maybe we need a mafia 101?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 03:25:33 pm by Submachine »
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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1234973#msg1234973
« Reply #634 on: June 07, 2016, 04:24:29 pm »
There is a difference between being silent and not posting. Voting should be mandatory in all mafia games. If the only posts you want to make are vote posts, no one is stopping you. It's your own fault if people use it against you and you don't defend yourself.

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Re: Elements Mafia 59 - by RootRanger https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=61853.msg1235003#msg1235003
« Reply #635 on: June 08, 2016, 06:37:24 am »
When playing mafia, you can't just gloss over the game. You have to be actively following it and working to build conclusions, assuming you're not discussing your opinions with others who are doing the same.

I wonder how many people simply misjudge how much time and effort you need to play Mafia properly.

I've felt for a long time that the problem isn't inactive people, but instead a very similar, perhaps married idea I call "sheepleism" - Sheeples mindlessly following the opinions of other people, contributing nothing other than additional votes for popular people.

Regardless, we have tried punishments before. It led to people acting like sheeples, which I personally think is even worse of an issue than inactive people (we can just assume that repeat offenders don't exist or lynch them quicker.)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 06:43:14 am by Espithel »

 

blarg: