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Offline Aneninen

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144650#msg1144650
« Reply #180 on: July 09, 2014, 10:19:55 pm »
So.
RootRanger, your calculation is impressive indeed, but there are other things we should think about.

From now on I assume that you both are Shards. I'm not saying that you ARE Shards, I'm just examining the possible advantages for the Shard section if you both belong to that faction. (Doing this claim if one of you were Shard while the other one is OP would be a bad gameplay.)

(1) Claiming a Moderator is not counter-claimable by a single player since we have TWO living Moderators. Shakif is a pretty useless role in early-game. It would have been silly to use the skill at Night 1, so, if anyone asked who had you targetted you could answer noone. This is important because even the target of a skill could tell us if a claim would be fake. So, Shakif is easily fake-claimed (in my opinion that's the easiest fake-claim apart from the Moderator), I daresay, in early-game the easiest fake-claim. By the way, the chance for the Oracle targetting an Admin and Shakif is [(1/13)×(2/12)+(2/13)×(1/12)]/2 = (1,28%1,28%)/2=1,28%. That's about 1 in 78. (Excluded the fact that one of the players is a known strategist. Like wow!)

(2) What if someone counter-claims? We lynch either Skyironsword or RootRanger – if we believe the counter-claimer at all! Because, a Non-Gamebot can make a counter-claim so as to produce a nice little WIFOM. So, in the end we may lynch either the counter-claimer or Skyironsword and/or Rootranger.
In addition, RootRanger may have an additional 50% protection if the HP Counter targetted him at Night 1. So, a group of the players vote for him while another group for the counter-claimer he may still evade the lynch!

(3) Even if the worst case scenario happens and one of them gets lynched because someone counter-claims and we believe that one, until the counterclaim arrives, many players PM them their roles. Whoa, free rolefishing for the Shards!
In addition, there are many not-too-active players: 'till a counter-claim more than a day can pass and it's also possible that the player who could counterclaim is not online at all!

(4) I regret to reveal something about you two, RootRanger, but it's necessary and basicly anyone can figure it out sooner or later. If you say, you two are Shakif and a Moderator , the only possible Moderator is Wigurashi, the sane one. If one of you were Eccense, the useless living Moderator it wouldn't hurt a lot to claim a useless role. And, no matter which Moderator is claimed by you if it was a NAMED one, it would be easily counter-claimed!
So, Eccense MUST claim immediately! Especially Eccense is RootRanger or Skyironsword (in this case you shouldn't be afraid of getting Nightkilled with a useless role for the town – remember, I did the very same in the previous game ^_^)
After this claim, if your claim was fake, the real Wigurashi can counter-claim. See below for details!


TL;DR about the points:

(1) It's pretty unlikely that the Oracle has targetted THAT particular two roles.
(2) Even if a counter-claim arrives it's possible that the town will lynch the counter-claim.
(3) The sheer value of rolefishing regardless the possible lynches is enormous.
(4) Not revealing the name of the Moderator is fishy, an unnamed Moderator is not counter-claimable.


What to do now?

(1) If you're Eccense, the Paranoid moderator, claim instantly. Your role is useless and there are more valuable Nightkill targets, so, don't be afraid.
(2) If you're Shakif, the Oracle, or Wigurashi (the latter one is only after an Eccense claim!!!), you don't need to claim, you can simply post: "The Rootranger/Skyironsword claim is NOT possible".
(3) Wait, DO NOT SEND PMs with your roles until the things are sorted out.


Remember: the post was about the assumption that RootRanger and Skyironsword are Shards. If no counterclaim arrives, they are telling the truth and we are lucky indeed with this Oracle-targetting.
In this case, I, of course will also send my PM about my role.

Feel free to vote for me if you don't believe in my thoughts. But, consider this: if I were a Shard (or the OP), it would be MUCH better for me not to send a PM at all and act as if I weren't here at all. (Or if I were forced to PM or claim for any reasons, I still could fake-claim something easy, like the other Moderator which would produce a WIFOM of course. ^_^)


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Offline DoubleCapitals

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144660#msg1144660
« Reply #181 on: July 09, 2014, 11:19:25 pm »
Root and Sky both fakeclaiming would be suicidal to the mafia faction.
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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadxop https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144665#msg1144665
« Reply #182 on: July 09, 2014, 11:56:02 pm »
Could someone else disprove all his crap please? I'm a little too busy right now. What's most important, though, is that basically everyone has seen this and I don't see any counter claim...

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Offline eljoemo

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144667#msg1144667
« Reply #183 on: July 10, 2014, 12:08:34 am »
What qwerter said. If Root and Sky were both shards then this whole shabang would just attract unnecessary attention to them. If the oracle didn't target them, then the oracle would have called them out. If the oracle did target them and they're both mafia (or mafia and OP) then it would be best to stay secret for as long as possible. Root is the best strategist here and he knows that. I'm willing to trust him.
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Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144668#msg1144668
« Reply #184 on: July 10, 2014, 12:27:18 am »
Let's assume for a second that the oracle targeted OP and mafia. There is a 1/15 chance that they targeted the OP. There is also a 1/5 chance that they targeted a scum. Which accounts for a 1/75 chance of that combination. Doing this would also potentially reduce the size of mafia by a half. Considering sky is still slightly nub at mafia (compared to others), sky might scum slip. Which also puts root at danger. It is way too risky to do this compared to other options.

@ane saying there is a 1/78 chance of targeting an admin and Shakif is terrible logic. There needs to be a combination of roles. It's like saying that I have a 1/15 chance to be essence. But I need to be one role, don't I? (Hypothetical. I may or may not actually be essence)

Also, FoS on qwerter. Mainly for being incredibly quick to start with WIFOM. Ian already had 3 votes on him and qwert just puts another on. There were no other votes at the time either. Ian was going to be lynched either way (as of right now).


Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144669#msg1144669
« Reply #185 on: July 10, 2014, 12:30:11 am »
I would also like to put a FoS on ane. Being mafia last time, I know how reluctant mafia is to send in roles. And trying to prevent people from doing so can be suspicious.

Ima try at mafia nao k?

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144674#msg1144674
« Reply #186 on: July 10, 2014, 01:23:35 am »
Hey dawn, did you know in Kuro's Mafia 38, the first one I played, Fippe was the one who scum slipped, not me? I was very careful not to. I take pride in that.

More relevantly:
Quote
(1) It's pretty unlikely that the Oracle has targetted THAT particular two roles.
(2) Even if a counter-claim arrives it's possible that the town will lynch the counter-claim.
(3) The sheer value of rolefishing regardless the possible lynches is enormous.
(4) Not revealing the name of the Moderator is fishy, an unnamed Moderator is not counter-claimable.

1: Clearly not
2: Either way mafia will lose a member or two
3: If mafia knew everyone's roles, that would indeed be bad, but losing half of the mafia team far outweighs that advantage
4: Oracle doesn't reveal why type of moderator you are

Offline Aneninen

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144693#msg1144693
« Reply #187 on: July 10, 2014, 06:32:29 am »
Eljoemo: sure, RootRanger is a brilliant strategist but, if he were (or is) a scum, he would (or will) be just as good. Noone should ever trust someone only because they're good strategists.

More relevantly:
Quote
(1) It's pretty unlikely that the Oracle has targetted THAT particular two roles.
(2) Even if a counter-claim arrives it's possible that the town will lynch the counter-claim.
(3) The sheer value of rolefishing regardless the possible lynches is enormous.
(4) Not revealing the name of the Moderator is fishy, an unnamed Moderator is not counter-claimable.

1: Clearly not
2: Either way mafia will lose a member or two
3: If mafia knew everyone's roles, that would indeed be bad, but losing half of the mafia team far outweighs that advantage
4: Oracle doesn't reveal why type of moderator you are

Answers in spoiler:

Spoiler for Hidden:
(1) Yes, it's very unlikely. There might have been roles having targetted which are easily counter-claimable or extremely important for the town. (Eg. PVP Negotiator or HP Counter.)

(2) True, but it's absolutely not essential that any of you are going to be lynched after a counter claim. If I were a Shard I'd surely attack your claim. (NO, I'm not attacking them right now, I just want to be sure about them. That IS a big difference and also see below!)

(3) Timing is relevant too. See (2) too: it's not sure that if you two were two Shards we'd lynch both of you in Day2 and Day3. Take this: if a counterclaim DOES arrive on your claim, even I'm not sure that I'd lynch any of you! (Depends on the style/timing/etc. of the counterclaim.)

(4) Sorry, but this answer is shytty! Okay, the Oracle doesn't reveal the identity of the Moderator but your own read does! One of you targetted yourself at Night 1, didn't you? So, if the answer was "Gamebot", you're Wigurashi. If it was "Non-Gamebot", you're Eccense. Why don't you just claim "One of us is Wigurashi" (that's more probable, see my post above)? The Non-Gamebots have only 50% chance for targetting Wigurashi, plus, we have a helper who can protect you, another 50%. I think the OP shot last night so he/she has no shot today. It's only 25% that you get Nightkilled! So, please, reveal the identity of the Moderator, in a "one of us" form. (It's obvious but I point it out: DO NOT reveal which one of you is the Moderator!)
RootRanger:

Quote
Could someone else disprove all his crap please? I'm a little too busy right now. What's most important, though, is that basically everyone has seen this and I don't see any counter claim...

Missing only two or three, so send in your skills. Yes, Ane, that means you.

Again, answers in spoiler:

Spoiler for Hidden:
Sorry, but that's not a strategic approach. Thinking about something and posting crap is not the same. Also, we only know that everyone has seen your post because you said it so. Only 4 players have posted anything since your strategic post. Where are the others?

However, assuming that you're telling the truth, I would like to know how many counterclaims have you got via PMs out of how many players. ONLY the number of course, posting roles and names would be obviously wrong. If requested, I'll explain why do I need this information via PM (if I explained it here that would help the Non-Gamebots. I don't want to give them ideas lol.)

Also, I'm pretty much aware of the fact that if you're telling the truth, I'll get lynched most probably. Unfortunately, my role is not an easily-confirmable one and since I'm hesitant to PM my role, most probably my PM will be a counterclaim of another player. Frankly, in this situation if I were you I wouldn't believe me after my PM as well. ^_^ But, and this goes for everyone, getting sure that they're telling the truth and getting lynched afterwards is an acceptable cost for the town.
Yes, RootRanger and Skyironsword, this latter part was a softclaim from me, use your logic and you can narrow my role to 3 possibility and I'm pretty sure that if RootRanger read my posts carefully he can narrow it to 1. PM me that role and I'll give you a yes/no answer. Can you see why I'm not afraid of getting lynched? ^_^
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Offline Espithel

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144718#msg1144718
« Reply #188 on: July 10, 2014, 11:34:03 am »
Question:
Do all mafia know who all other mafia are?
I am assuming yes.

Offline dawn to dusk

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144719#msg1144719
« Reply #189 on: July 10, 2014, 11:36:11 am »
Question:
Do all mafia know who all other mafia are?
I am assuming yes.
they do

however, they do not know who the OP monstrosity is (generally)

Offline DoubleCapitals

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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144729#msg1144729
« Reply #190 on: July 10, 2014, 12:33:00 pm »
Rebutting Ane later
How are the claims, Root?
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Re: Elements Mafia 40 - by Zawadx https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=54887.msg1144737#msg1144737
« Reply #191 on: July 10, 2014, 02:49:50 pm »
Aneninen (1) - RootRanger

If he isn't going to tell me his skill, no worries, we can find out by killing him.

Now, if he does PM me his skill, and he is somehow actually a gamebot, maybe I'll go after someone else.
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blarg: