*Author

Offline bogtro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 964
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • bogtro is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.bogtro is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Bring it. I'm ready.
  • Awards: 6th Trials - Master of DarknessWeekly Tournament WinnerChampionship League 1/2012 2nd PlaceWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525195#msg525195
« Reply #108 on: July 25, 2012, 02:58:25 am »
I am starting to lose track of arguments and reasonings, but I would like to point out that even if we leave OTL alive, and his element is a double civy, the mafia will most likely not kill him. This way they will make us think that one of the mafia is a fire elemental, that's why they didn't kill him.

...which forces the mafia to either risk one of their own members (with higher probability! If fire is indeed a double town, the probability of mafia killing one of their own increases) or bite the bullet and kill OTL.

Of course, I'm not a huge fan of lynching Root as there seems to be absolutely no reason to, but sigh. Unfortunately, OTL worth more alive than dead atm, and Root may not fall into that category (being an unknown<being a likely town) :/
Years ago we had Ronald Reagan, Johnny Cash, Bob Hope, and Steve Jobs. Now we have Obama, no hope, no cash, and no jobs.

Offline RootRanger

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3118
  • Reputation Power: 51
  • RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.
  • R A I N B R O S
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 13th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday Cake10th Trials - Master of FireElemental Conquest WinnerWriting Competition - Across(tic) the World of ElementsWeekly Tournament Winner1st Grandmaster Battle Winner - FireThere Can Be Only One - 2016 WinnerGold DonorChampionship League 2/2015 2nd Place9th Trials - Master of FireElements: A Game of Politics - WinnerEnder of War War #8 Winner - Team FireWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerChampionship League 1/2013 WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWar #4 Winner - Team DeathChampionship League 3/2011 3rd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerBeginners League 2/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerBeginners League 1/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament Winner
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525198#msg525198
« Reply #109 on: July 25, 2012, 03:09:43 am »
Spoiler for Hidden:
EBWOP:
If we lynch OTL, and the mafia is not a fire element (probability 22/23*21/22*20/21*19/20=19/23=about 82.6%), the mafia has a chance of killing their own, based on:
a) All 4 mafia have different elements - probability 22/22*20/21*18/20*16/19, which is about 72.18%
b) 2 mafia have the same element, 2 other mafia have different elements - probability 6*22/22*1/21*20/20*18/19, which is about 27.06%
c) 2 mafia have 1 element, 2 mafia have another element - probability 6*22/22*1/21*20/20*1/19, which is about 1.5%

In case a, their probability of killing a mafia is 4/20=1/5=20%
In case b, their probability of killing a mafia is 2/22=1/11=about 9.1%
In case c, their probability of killing a mafia is 0%

Therefore, the expected probability of killing a mafia is about 16.88% (note that this includes the probability of lynching a mafia immediately by the mafia being the other fire element).

If we don't lynch OTL, the probability of killing a mafia is based on:
a) Mafia is the other fire element (about 17.4% chance)
a1) Two mafia have the same element, one has fire, one has something else. Probability 12*1/23*22/22*1/21*20/20=about 2.48%
a2) All mafia have different elements - probability 1/23*22/22*20/21*18/20=about 3.72%
b) Mafia is not a fire element (about 82.6% chance)
b1) All 4 mafia have different elements - probability 1*20/21*18/20*16/19=about 72.18%
b2) 2 Mafia have the same element, the other 2 are different - probability 6*1*1/21*1*18/19=about 27.06%
b3) 2 Mafia have 1 element, 2 mafia have the other - probability 6*1*1/21*1*1/19=about 1.5%

Killing mafia by lynching probabilities:
a1) 3/21=about 14.3%
a2) 7/23=about 30.4%
b1) 8/23=about 35.8%
b2) 6/23=about 26.1%
b3) 4/23=about 17.4%

Weighting these gives a mafia killing probability *just by lynching* (this does not take into account the possibility of the mafia deciding to not kill OTL) of 34.6%

Although I am not too sure in my math at the moment, and any mistakes should be pointed out, the number of 34.6% without killing OTL vs. 16.88% with killing OTL makes the decision clear to me.

The main point here is that we have a better chance by killing 2 unknowns than the mafia do of killing one unknown.
Now, I love statistical analysis just as much as the next guy, but what you've written isn't actually a good comparison. You first calculate the chance that the mafia kills one of their own members if we decide to lynch OTL. Then, you calculate the chance that we kill a mafia member if we lynch someone other than OTL. You're comparing apples and oranges, bogtro, and it's not a valid comparison. If you recalculate the statistics to include the chance that OTL (or his partner) is a mafia member and include the (small) chance that the mafia kills one of their own members, I can guarantee you'll find that lynching OTL gives us a higher chance at killing a mafia member.

Lynching OTL gives us just as good of a chance of lynching a mafia member or a mafia member's partner as it does to lynch anyone else playing this game. But if we lynch anyone other than OTL, the mafia can kill OTL if they don't have a :fire mafia member to net two civilian kills with extremely low risk of killing one of their own teammates. However, if we lynch OTL, the mafia is forced to risk killing one of their own. By lynching OTL, not only do we have just as high a chance as lynching a mafia member or a mafia member's partner, but we have a much higher chance that the mafia lynches the partner of one of their own mafia members, thus netting us a mafia kill the following round.

What's more, Root's attack was a bit tool strong considering OTL had admitted his mistake twice by the time Root posted.
It isn't easy to be a civ when you're a mafia veteran. The mafia are much more likely to kill me, being one of the more experienced players. So you know what I do? I make myself a target so that I'm more likely to be saved by the doctor, which makes me riskier for the mafia to lynch. Go hard or go home!
Somehow still around, somewhat

Offline bogtro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 964
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • bogtro is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.bogtro is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Bring it. I'm ready.
  • Awards: 6th Trials - Master of DarknessWeekly Tournament WinnerChampionship League 1/2012 2nd PlaceWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525215#msg525215
« Reply #110 on: July 25, 2012, 04:08:01 am »
Spoiler for Hidden:
EBWOP:
If we lynch OTL, and the mafia is not a fire element (probability 22/23*21/22*20/21*19/20=19/23=about 82.6%), the mafia has a chance of killing their own, based on:
a) All 4 mafia have different elements - probability 22/22*20/21*18/20*16/19, which is about 72.18%
b) 2 mafia have the same element, 2 other mafia have different elements - probability 6*22/22*1/21*20/20*18/19, which is about 27.06%
c) 2 mafia have 1 element, 2 mafia have another element - probability 6*22/22*1/21*20/20*1/19, which is about 1.5%

In case a, their probability of killing a mafia is 4/20=1/5=20%
In case b, their probability of killing a mafia is 2/22=1/11=about 9.1%
In case c, their probability of killing a mafia is 0%

Therefore, the expected probability of killing a mafia is about 16.88% (note that this includes the probability of lynching a mafia immediately by the mafia being the other fire element).

If we don't lynch OTL, the probability of killing a mafia is based on:
a) Mafia is the other fire element (about 17.4% chance)
a1) Two mafia have the same element, one has fire, one has something else. Probability 12*1/23*22/22*1/21*20/20=about 2.48%
a2) All mafia have different elements - probability 1/23*22/22*20/21*18/20=about 3.72%
b) Mafia is not a fire element (about 82.6% chance)
b1) All 4 mafia have different elements - probability 1*20/21*18/20*16/19=about 72.18%
b2) 2 Mafia have the same element, the other 2 are different - probability 6*1*1/21*1*18/19=about 27.06%
b3) 2 Mafia have 1 element, 2 mafia have the other - probability 6*1*1/21*1*1/19=about 1.5%

Killing mafia by lynching probabilities:
a1) 3/21=about 14.3%
a2) 7/23=about 30.4%
b1) 8/23=about 35.8%
b2) 6/23=about 26.1%
b3) 4/23=about 17.4%

Weighting these gives a mafia killing probability *just by lynching* (this does not take into account the possibility of the mafia deciding to not kill OTL) of 34.6%

Although I am not too sure in my math at the moment, and any mistakes should be pointed out, the number of 34.6% without killing OTL vs. 16.88% with killing OTL makes the decision clear to me.

The main point here is that we have a better chance by killing 2 unknowns than the mafia do of killing one unknown.
Now, I love statistical analysis just as much as the next guy, but what you've written isn't actually a good comparison. You first calculate the chance that the mafia kills one of their own members if we decide to lynch OTL. Then, you calculate the chance that we kill a mafia member if we lynch someone other than OTL. You're comparing apples and oranges, bogtro, and it's not a valid comparison. If you recalculate the statistics to include the chance that OTL (or his partner) is a mafia member and include the (small) chance that the mafia kills one of their own members, I can guarantee you'll find that lynching OTL gives us a higher chance at killing a mafia member.

The assumption I make is that if we do not lynch OTL, then the mafia will do as you say and kill OTL with 0 chance of killing their own members. If indeed OTL or his partner is mafia, then obviously the mafia will not kill OTL, and we have the same options tomorrow as we do today with extra information and a greater chance of a "successful" lynch.


Quote
Lynching OTL gives us just as good of a chance of lynching a mafia member or a mafia member's partner as it does to lynch anyone else playing this game. But if we lynch anyone other than OTL, the mafia can kill OTL if they don't have a :fire mafia member to net two civilian kills with extremely low risk of killing one of their own teammates. However, if we lynch OTL, the mafia is forced to risk killing one of their own. By lynching OTL, not only do we have just as high a chance as lynching a mafia member or a mafia member's partner, but we have a much higher chance that the mafia lynches the partner of one of their own mafia members, thus netting us a mafia kill the following round.

You are misunderstanding. If we go by your assumption that either way OTL will die (either we lynch or the mafia kills), then the end result is the same save the fact that we get to choose the other kill instead of the mafia choosing. The chance of us killing a mafia by lynch is far higher than the chance of the mafia killing their own by killing their partner.
Years ago we had Ronald Reagan, Johnny Cash, Bob Hope, and Steve Jobs. Now we have Obama, no hope, no cash, and no jobs.

Offline RootRanger

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3118
  • Reputation Power: 51
  • RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.RootRanger brings all the vitality and activity of a Life Nymph.
  • R A I N B R O S
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 13th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday Cake10th Trials - Master of FireElemental Conquest WinnerWriting Competition - Across(tic) the World of ElementsWeekly Tournament Winner1st Grandmaster Battle Winner - FireThere Can Be Only One - 2016 WinnerGold DonorChampionship League 2/2015 2nd Place9th Trials - Master of FireElements: A Game of Politics - WinnerEnder of War War #8 Winner - Team FireWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerChampionship League 1/2013 WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWar #4 Winner - Team DeathChampionship League 3/2011 3rd PlaceWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerBeginners League 2/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerWeekly PvP Tournament WinnerBeginners League 1/2011 2nd PlaceWeekly PvP Tournament Winner
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525244#msg525244
« Reply #111 on: July 25, 2012, 06:21:16 am »
The assumption I make is that if we do not lynch OTL, then the mafia will do as you say and kill OTL with 0 chance of killing their own members. If indeed OTL or his partner is mafia, then obviously the mafia will not kill OTL, and we have the same options tomorrow as we do today with extra information and a greater chance of a "successful" lynch.
Again, I prefer the larger chance at killing a mafia member as opposed to having mostly unreliable information.

You are misunderstanding. If we go by your assumption that either way OTL will die (either we lynch or the mafia kills), then the end result is the same save the fact that we get to choose the other kill instead of the mafia choosing. The chance of us killing a mafia by lynch is far higher than the chance of the mafia killing their own by killing their partner.
But OTL won't die either way. If we lynch someone else, and OTL or his partner is mafia, then the mafia will kill someone else and we miss out on killing a mafia member. This is why my original statement still stands.
Somehow still around, somewhat

Offline DoubleCapitals

  • Master of Earth
  • *
  • Posts: 747
  • Country: sg
  • Reputation Power: 27
  • DoubleCapitals is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.DoubleCapitals is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.DoubleCapitals is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.DoubleCapitals is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.DoubleCapitals is a proud Wyrm taking wing for the first time.
  • *whistle*
  • Awards: 14th Trials - Master of EarthSlice of Elements 11th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday Cake11th Trials - Master of TimeSlice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525333#msg525333
« Reply #112 on: July 25, 2012, 02:24:12 pm »
Rootranger - 7 - ddevans96, regen2k9, UTL, Shantu, Helston, Mort, Laxadarap
Mort - 1 - majofa
bogtro - 1 - Annele
PlayerOa - 1 - Legit
OTL- 7 - Onizuka, RootRanger, 1world24, Jocko, PlayerOa, Cheesy111,  agentflare
1world24 - 1 - qwerter
helston - 1 - blarp
blarp - 1 - McSod
You expect a game-changer? Be disappointed.
Blame Glacial Lock.
L R L R STOP & DASH & UP & TALK B B A B S(tart)

Offline OTL

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 133
  • Country: sg
  • Reputation Power: 3
  • OTL is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • Total weaboo
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525343#msg525343
« Reply #113 on: July 25, 2012, 02:59:45 pm »
orz schoolwork >.>

anyway, from what I'm seeing (pardon me if I'm wrong), basically the argument is around whether to lynch me or not, with a whole lot of number crunching to find the probabilities of whether lynching me would have a better likelihood of hitting maf or whether lynching an unknown (here being Root) is better.

I'm actually leaning towards voting myself at the moment, since I know that my mafia experience pales in comparison to Root, which means that he is a greater asset if he's town.

But because I know I'm town, and because doing that is the absolute most anti-town move there is, I'll just continue abstaining from voting

Offline mesaprotector

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • Be creative!
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake6th Trials - Master of LightBrawl #1 Winner - Team Nyan SharksSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525363#msg525363
« Reply #114 on: July 25, 2012, 04:38:40 pm »
Dayphase 1 is over!

Las Vegas during the daytime is usually pretty quiet, but not today. The tourists hurled accusations everywhere, hoping to unmask a mafioso by cleverness or by luck. Eventually, two separate lynch mobs formed. One marched downtown to RootRanger's house, while the other traveled up Kyle Canyon Road, outside of town, to OTL's mountain getaway. The Kyle Canyon mob reached OTL, and brutally slaughtered him with spiky poker chips, when the downtown mob was just a few minutes away from their target. When the news broke of OTL's death, the communal beast's hunger for blood was temporarily assuaged, and RootRanger was spared.

(Summary: RootRanger and OTL tied for lynch, and RNG chose OTL)

OTL was a tourist. Unfortunately I don't have the sheet of paper I recorded everyone's roles on with me, but I'll post his secondary role and element well before nightphase ends.

Begin Nightphase 1! The sun has risen again on Vegas.
Blue Ranger reporting, ready for teamwork and silly songs!

Offline mesaprotector

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • Be creative!
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake6th Trials - Master of LightBrawl #1 Winner - Team Nyan SharksSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg525606#msg525606
« Reply #115 on: July 26, 2012, 03:13:47 am »
OTL, btw, was a Vanilla Tourist, with the element :fire .
Blue Ranger reporting, ready for teamwork and silly songs!

Offline mesaprotector

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
  • Reputation Power: 16
  • mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.mesaprotector is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • Be creative!
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake6th Trials - Master of LightBrawl #1 Winner - Team Nyan SharksSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg526106#msg526106
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2012, 03:08:04 am »
Nightphase 1 is over!

So Bogtro was hanging out around the nightclub, and since it was a hot night, he decided to go out for ice cream. He walked out and, as if by perfect chance, there was an ice cream truck waiting there. He bought a cone of smooth chocolate ice cream, but before he could eat it, it mutated... slowly... into an enormous Arctic Dragon, which promptly ate him all up.

Or not, since he was really just tripping on a monster dose of LSD. There aren't any Arctic Dragons in Vegas, silly. Disoriented after coming out of his trip, he stumbled around a bit before being hit by an oncoming truck. Dead for real this time. Sorry, Bogtro.

Meanwhile, Legit died of despair after the slaughtering of his innocent friend, OTL.

Bogtro was a Vanilla Tourist, of the element :life .
Legit was a Tourist/Lawyer, of the element :fire .

Begin Dayphase 2!

The sun has set on Vegas.


Btw, three people didn't send in nightphase actions. Please do next time. I can pester you with PMs, but aside from that there's not much I can do other than modkilling.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 03:13:41 am by mesaprotector »
Blue Ranger reporting, ready for teamwork and silly songs!

Offline justaburd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 638
  • Reputation Power: 12
  • justaburd is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.justaburd is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • Chirp!
  • Awards: Gold DonorSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday Cake7th Trials - Master of AirSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg526110#msg526110
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2012, 03:29:58 am »
do we go for root now? lol
Chirp? *looks around*

Offline Legit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 791
  • Reputation Power: 18
  • Legit is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Legit is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.Legit is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • Laxydaxy drives a taxi
  • Awards: Weekly Tournament WinnerWar #3 Winner - Team FirePsuedo-Element Winner (Tech)
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg526116#msg526116
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2012, 04:09:20 am »
I love you to death OTL! <333

Offline blarp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 746
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 9
  • blarp is a Spark waiting for a buff.
  • To become immortal, one must play as a god.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeChampionship League 1/2013 2nd PlaceBrawl #1 Winner - Team Nyan SharksChampionship League 2/2012 WinnerSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday Cake
Re: Elements Mafia 25 - Hosted by Mesaprotector https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42146.msg526123#msg526123
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2012, 04:52:18 am »
so did the mafia kill someone? how does this work? is there a separate thread where the mafia go chat on who dies?
My default opinion of a new card is OP. Your job as a card creator will have to be to convince me otherwise.
Happy to help with questions regarding upped PvP
Thanks for voting Blarp as your Favorite PvP Deck of 2012!
Blarp (the deck), bane of Championship League

 

blarg: