The "Karma"-system: A controversial debate

[Scaredgirl]

This recently mentioned aspect is really (!!) touchy people, but I fear I still have to say this.
Please don't get me wrong on this one. I am not questioning the administration in person but the system of Karma-distribution itself:

So in the end, Karma isn't even an autonomous communal "verdict-summary" (however problematic that may already be) but the final judgement of a single person?

Apparently, I wasn't even aware how far down the rabbit-hole this could go, because in that case nobody is really a judge here like the whole idea of Karma implies, only Scaredgirl is.
The rest of us are merely a bunch of prosecutors, lawyers or jury-members trying to "convince" the real judge who is (unlike any judge should be) subjected to the Karma-system herself and most likely not unbiased.
As thoughful, nice, hard-working, awesome etc. Scaredgirl may be, I find that setup a bit odd, to say the least.

If you think I somehow "approve" each Karma like a judge, you are mistaken. I don't have time for that, nor would I do it if I did have time. Only situations where I've ever deleted Karma is when there is some kind of misunderstanding, for example a language barrier. But I don't hunt down for those because like I said, I don't have time for that. In each case, the person in question contacted me first.

And as for my own Karma log, I have never removed my own negative Karma. If I did, it would be lame beyond belief and I like to look myself in the mirror in the morning. I'm actually the 2nd most smited member on this forum. I was in 3rd place (behind a serious troll), but then I got the 15th smite on this same thread, lol Fortunately for me, my hard work here gives me enough positive Karma to balance out the Karma given by "haters" which I why I have a big pile of Karma.


Bottom line is this: Karma system stays.

Unless I see a serious flaw in the system, or Zanz asks me to remove it, I see no reason to get rid of it. It's actually working much better than I expected.

We have many members who have worked hard to get that Karma by drawing art, coding all kinds of cool stuff, helping newbies, etc. Karma is a reward for them for being active and helping the community. I'm not going to take that reward away from them just because a handful of people (who surprisingly don't do those things I mentioned) think Karma is "evil".

I said my piece and I'm moving on to more important and productive things. Keep up the discussion though. It's good to talk about these things.

[killsdazombies]

Lol SG how much - karma do you have?

[Scaredgirl]

Lol SG how much - karma do you have?

I have a total of 15 negative Karma. I don't have a description for all of them because some of them were given during the first couple of weeks, but here are some of them:

Scaredgirl's Negative Karma

"Failing at your job, as per the Karma thread. ;p" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2355.msg22513#msg22513)
Here I forgot to change permissions when installing this Karma system. I then joked about giving me negative Karma for that and someone did as they where told

"Abuse of power." (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,2607.msg25016#msg25016)
This is one of my favorites. It was a "Last Post Wins" which is a dumb and never ending forum game. I thought I'd hit two birds with one stone by locking the thread and taking the win. Unfortunately that was considered "abuse of power". To make matter worse, Delreich also "abused" his moderator powers scoring the win.

"Unnessesary jerkiness." (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,3139.msg30837#msg30837)
Here's me being a jerk.

"Broke the sigs >:C" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,3523.msg35706#msg35706)
I removed some of the signature options to improve loading times. Bad move.

"Bad joke" (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4698.msg52245#msg52245)
This is also a good one. I spent a couple of hours planning and executing this April Fools joke. I shouldn't have because that earned me negative Karma by someone who doesn't like April Fools

I also have a bunch of negative Karma for doing regular forum moderating like editing and deleting posts:
"message delete rush"
"I feel this thread shold have been kept up so...pm-ing rest"
"edited my thread without my permission"
etc.

I like my negative Karma. It gives me a good laugh when I read it because most of them are so ridiculous.

One interesting fact is that one about 40% of my negative Karma have come from only one person which kinda sucks. That person even gave me 2 negative Karma from one comment which is something I would have fixed if it was someone else, but like I said I'm not fixing my own Karma logs. Then again I've received positive Karma from this person too so I think it's almost in balance.

My tip to everyone: do like me and don't take Karma too seriously.

[killsdazombies]

lol sg that funny XD must be funny to read all those and just laugh at them.

[Boingo]

Bottom line is this: Karma system stays.

Just lock the thread now.  The debate only matters if there's a reason to debate.  All the relevant arguments have been given and explored.  The decision to keep the karma system has been made by the people that make the decisions.  End of story.

[Wardead]

how do you get positive karma? doing good stuff?

[Kamietsu]

Karma iz seriuz biznez.

[Jangoo]

Bottom line is this: Karma system stays.

I was just going to ask the question how the chances are that some of the suggestions in this thread are actually implemented.

So, does this mean "stays" as in "stays exactly as it is right now and there shall be no further discussion about this"?

We have many members who have worked hard to get that Karma by drawing art, coding all kinds of cool stuff, helping newbies, etc. Karma is a reward for them for being active and helping the community. I'm not going to take that reward away from them just because a handful of people (who surprisingly don't do those things I mentioned) think Karma is "evil".

Among all the controversial suggestions to change Karma for the better, one suggestion has found a common ground, in parts even among those who could be considered "pro-Karma" in this thread :

Changing/"Nerfing" negative Karma.
This would not take away the due reward for those who contribute most
and still alleviate the most severe downsides of the Karma-system.

It has been supported or at least considered by (order of appearance):

Jangoo (Jr.member)
bonjengles77 (Jr.member, contender for a Masters-title)
Kuroaitou (Jr.member, contender for a Masters-title)
mafidufa (Jr. member)
PuppyChow (ChatMod., Master of Time)
Chemist (Jr.member)
Kael Hate (Full.member, contender for a Masters-title)
BluePriest (Full.member)
miniwally (Full.member, contender for a Masters-title)
Kurohami (Full-member, contender for a Masters-title)
Boingo (Jr.member)
DrunkDestroyer (Newbie)

The debate only matters if there's a reason to debate.  All the relevant arguments have been given and explored. 
The decision to keep the karma system has been made by the people that make the decisions. 

      As usual: In a nutshell, Boingo.

[Scaredgirl]

So, does this mean "stays" as in "stays exactly as it is right now and there shall be no further discussion about this"?

I already explained everything in that previous post. I also encouraged you guys to continue discussion so that more people know about Karma system and we get less "bad Karma".

If you at some point thought that this thread of yours would somehow decide the fate of Karma system on this forum, then you have totally misunderstood the situation. You don't make that call, and neither do any of those people you list there. If a clear majority of forum users would want to get rid of Karma system, I would definitely do that. However looking at your poll there, that's definitely not the case.

Like I said, Karma system stays for now.

[Essence]

One interesting fact is that one about 40% of my negative Karma have come from only one person which kinda sucks. That person even gave me 2 negative Karma from one comment which is something I would have fixed if it was someone else, but like I said I'm not fixing my own Karma logs. Then again I've received positive Karma from this person too so I think it's almost in balance.

Even odds says I'm the one who is responsible for that 40% of SG's negative Karma.  I went on a bit of a rampage for a couple of weeks.

[killsdazombies]

One interesting fact is that one about 40% of my negative Karma have come from only one person which kinda sucks. That person even gave me 2 negative Karma from one comment which is something I would have fixed if it was someone else, but like I said I'm not fixing my own Karma logs. Then again I've received positive Karma from this person too so I think it's almost in balance.

Even odds says I'm the one who is responsible for that 40% of SG's negative Karma.  I went on a bit of a rampage for a couple of weeks.

lol, and Iv noticed, people who curse like crazy and just are overwhelmingly annoying tend to have low low low karma, but it puts them in a "Karma based jail" where people bash their ideas and they quit, maybe you could make it impossible to have - karma or something because iv seen people with good ideas get bashed into a hole from people who look at him Karma not his Ideas.

[Scaredgirl]

One interesting fact is that one about 40% of my negative Karma have come from only one person which kinda sucks. That person even gave me 2 negative Karma from one comment which is something I would have fixed if it was someone else, but like I said I'm not fixing my own Karma logs. Then again I've received positive Karma from this person too so I think it's almost in balance.

Even odds says I'm the one who is responsible for that 40% of SG's negative Karma.  I went on a bit of a rampage for a couple of weeks.

I'm not saying who it is, and it's actually much closer to 30% now that I used real math.

Rampage happens to everyone every once and for a while. To me it happens when servers crash.

lol, and Iv noticed, people who curse like crazy and just are overwhelmingly annoying tend to have low low low karma, but it puts them in a "Karma based jail" where people bash their ideas and they quit, maybe you could make it impossible to have - karma or something because iv seen people with good ideas get bashed into a hole from people who look at him Karma not his Ideas.

I though about this whole Karma business yesterday. Like I said earlier on this thread, the core of the problem is new members getting negative Karma.

Someone on this thread suggested that we got rid of the negative Karma. That's actually a pretty good idea. I found a really easy way of doing it without needing to tweak the code which is awesome. Advantage of this is that we still have the "reward" that Karma gives, but we won't have any more "negative Karma outcasts". And the best part is this: I will never have to go edit Karma log again! That alone is good enough a reason for me.

I have now disabled the "Smite" button. Lets see what happens.