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Other Topics => Forum Bugs, Suggestions and Feedback => Topic started by: Naesala on November 01, 2012, 06:29:41 pm

Title: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 01, 2012, 06:29:41 pm
I don't know if this is possible, or even desired by a sufficient number of community members to be worth the effort, but there are more genders than male and female. I'm wondering if people would want a change the the forum profiles to reflect this (maybe have a gender and sex option?) This stuff could still be hidden or left blank by those who don't care/don't want to, of course.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: furballdn on November 02, 2012, 12:18:38 am
Just don't set it as male or female if neither of them apply to you.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Elbirn on November 02, 2012, 04:02:24 am
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding. But it sounds like you're saying that the "gender" option should read as follows..

Male
Male (*insert proper term for one who has had gender re-assignment surgery, which I do not know*)
Female
Female (*insert proper term for one who has had gender re-assignment surgery, which I do not know*)

If that is the case, then, keeping in mind that I know nothing of the desires of other people, don't think this would be wanted. It is my (admittedly limited) understanding that someone who has gone through such trouble to change their gender, will want to be identified as their gender. Ex, a male who was once a female does not want to be thought of as "A male who was once a female". He wants to be thought of as a male.

Again though, this is a potentially touchy subject, and I don't really know much about it.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Cheesy111 on November 02, 2012, 04:06:40 am
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding. But it sounds like you're saying that the "gender" option should read as follows..

Male
Male (*insert proper term for one who has had gender re-assignment surgery, which I do not know*)
Female
Female (*insert proper term for one who has had gender re-assignment surgery, which I do not know*)

If that is the case, then, keeping in mind that I know nothing of the desires of other people, don't think this would be wanted. It is my (admittedly limited) understanding that someone who has gone through such trouble to change their gender, will want to be identified as their gender. Ex, a male who was once a female does not want to be thought of as "A male who was once a female". He wants to be thought of as a male.

Again though, this is a potentially touchy subject, and I don't really know much about it.

This is kind of right.  People who are X gender are people of X gender regardless of surgical status, and so they would be a man or a woman or whatever.  But not everyone feels like a man or a woman - some feel in-between(genderqueer? I think?), some feel like neither, some feel like some other gender.  I'm not an expert, but it seems like an easy way to rectify this would be to have people type in their gender.  That way people could put male/female/not saying/whatever else they want. 
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: furballdn on November 02, 2012, 04:09:48 am
other gender.  I'm not an expert, but it seems like an easy way to rectify this would be to have people type in their gender.  That way people could put male/female/not saying/whatever else they want.
And how many people would use that like the way it's supposed to? You'll have all kinds of silly responses there.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Cheesy111 on November 02, 2012, 04:15:23 am
other gender.  I'm not an expert, but it seems like an easy way to rectify this would be to have people type in their gender.  That way people could put male/female/not saying/whatever else they want.
And how many people would use that like the way it's supposed to? You'll have all kinds of silly responses there.

Sure, but who cares? People can put serious or silly stuff in there, I don't think it's utterly crucial to know someone's gender.  Worst that can happen is you use the wrong pronoun and they correct you, no harm done.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Elbirn on November 02, 2012, 04:17:48 am
Gaiz, my gender is Rhinoceros. LOL 9GAG

[/Elements community as we know it]


...In all seriousness though, on topic, Ima vote "Waffles". And by that I mean "This isn't a good idea."
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 02, 2012, 06:06:39 am
How I would have it set up:
Gender:Male, Female, Gender Fluid, Gender Queer, Androgynous, Undifferentiated, Other (This is the most common spectrum I know)
Sex: Male, Female, Male Transexual, Female Transexual (other?)

Typing in a gender is bound to cause problems. I don't suggest that, i suggest more options.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding. But it sounds like you're saying that the "gender" option should read as follows..

Male
Male (*insert proper term for one who has had gender re-assignment surgery, which I do not know*)
Female
Female (*insert proper term for one who has had gender re-assignment surgery, which I do not know*)
There are many more varieties (some noted above).

At the minimum, would an "Other" option be acceptable? I'd rather not leave it blank.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Tiko on November 02, 2012, 07:14:11 am
Currently, you have three options: Male, Female or leaving it blank. I don't see the reason why the latter isn't satisfactory enough. I also don't really see the reason why would anyone want to highlight their 'special defects', especially on the internet unless on a dedicated Forum. If you would, you'd probably make your own situation worse.

Sorry to say it, but this is ridiculous.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Kamietsu on November 02, 2012, 08:18:51 am
As long as there is never an 'Asexual' option, I'm fine with whatever, sort of. I know that would fall under orientation but that is usually only a hop skip and a jump away from gender and sex.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 02, 2012, 08:44:41 am
Currently, you have three options: Male, Female or leaving it blank. I don't see the reason why the latter isn't satisfactory enough. I also don't really see the reason why would anyone want to highlight their 'special defects', especially on the internet unless on a dedicated Forum. If you would, you'd probably make your own situation worse.

Sorry to say it, but this is ridiculous.
I'm sorry, I find this right out offensive. Having a different Gender from your sex, or having a gender that falls between sexes, or not having a gender at all, none of these are "special defects". They aren't "defects" at all. It is not ridiculous for me to ask for this consideration (I may be denied it, but I'm surely within a range to ask). I don't know if you are ignorant on this subject or not but now you know.

"you have three options: Male, Female or leaving it blank. I don't see the reason why the latter isn't satisfactory enough" You have three options, Caucasian, African American, or leave it blank. You have three options: America, England, or leave it blank. You have three options:  :fire  :water or leave it blank. You have three options: "I'm happy" "I'm sad" or leave it blank. Would you limit yourself to two pairs of clothes or nudity? I'm not so much upset by your opinion of "I don't think we need this change" as "I don't see why it isnt fine to leave this blank, even though the rest of us can list this information accurately"

As long as there is never an 'Asexual' option, I'm fine with whatever, sort of. I know that would fall under orientation but that is usually only a hop skip and a jump away from gender and sex.
Elements isn't a dating site so sexuality shouldn't have a spot on the forum profile. Some may say "then why is gender important?" Mainly because it reflects on how a person wishes to be addressed and developing and idea of who they are which is helpful in conversation in my opinion. It makes us more than walls of text. But this is my opinion. If someone opposes that, then I don't see why the option for gender should be here period.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: RavingRabbid on November 02, 2012, 08:48:55 am
It just makes no sense to me.

Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: sinyor on November 02, 2012, 08:49:48 am
WAFFLES! Nothing but waffles!!!!!!
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Kamietsu on November 02, 2012, 08:58:19 am
Because majority is usually what is used. Most people are either male, or female. While I can understand why you would want to identify yourself as something other than those two, most don't. It's not something you'd see or write on a resume or job application either. Which is why the 'prefer not to answer' or 'other' or 'leave blank' are usually available. Because just adding one extra option opens up the "why not one more?" dialogue. If so and so gets their gender listed, then so and so wants their gender listed, and so on and so forth.  In anything, gender should be changed to sex as that is a little harder to be something other than male or female as most want to be one or the other no matter what lengths they take to get there. If you want to declare what you mentally consider yourself, no one is stopping you, there is even some tiny text under your name you can fill in with whatever text you want. And a signature area where you can proclaim whatever it is you wish.

I'm never going to use any other gender option if more were listed. I consider what is listed under the gender options on any website as what biological parts I have. It's just simpler that way. And if I care enough about my mental gender role I will freely talk about it or not talk about it.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: OldTrees on November 02, 2012, 09:57:58 am
Honestly, I do not see the reason for gender options. I choose ____ because my identity is more important than my gender.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: teffy on November 02, 2012, 10:49:59 am
if I remember correctly,  sometimes the option "other" is available.
Current options:
1)
2) Male
3) Female

Sorry, I deleted my message, because Kamietsu has also written that:
[...]Which is why the 'prefer not to answer' or 'other' or 'leave blank' are usually available. [...]
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on November 02, 2012, 12:14:53 pm
People may have changed their appearance to match a different gender, or even to make their appearance completely alien. However, in my most honest opinion and without trying to insult anyone, gender is not what you look like or even what you want to be or be adressed. A woman who was a woman and then changed into a man through surgery, she i still a woman, because her DNA is female and it always will be. She has to accept that fact. She may wishes to be adressed like a man and that's fine by me and I would address her like a man, but she is still a woman and actually she has to accept her female gender. Same goes with other similar situations. So, I think that having more than 2 genders is rediculous, because gender is a scientific, genetics fact and not a social one imo.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Higurashi on November 02, 2012, 12:40:20 pm
Not quite, Arth. What you are referring to is sex. Sex is physical. Gender is entirely mental and a part of your identity. We are free to choose gender in society after what feels right, and the internet is even more free.

I support adding more options for people who choose differently, but because this is a game community anything more than Other would be irrelevant.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on November 02, 2012, 12:54:37 pm
Not quite, Arth. What you are referring to is sex. Sex is physical. Gender is entirely mental and a part of your identity. We are free to choose gender in society after what feels right, and the internet is even more free.

I support adding more options for people who choose differently, but because this is a game community anything more than Other would be irrelevant.

Hmm... After taking a closer look into Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Higs is right and 'gender' is "the fact of being male or female, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences, not differences in biology", while 'sex' is "the state of being male of female". So, yes, Higs is right and I actually was refering to 'sex' instead of 'gender' in my above post.
However, this makes things even more sensitive and I am afraid people are going to abuse these 'extra genders' choices to either troll the community or, even worse, make fun of people who belong into these categories. So, if the community is indeed mature enough for it, then I will support it.
 However, I am not fully convinced for our maturity about gender facts, so I think we shouldn't make such a move for now...
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 02, 2012, 06:17:34 pm
Not quite, Arth. What you are referring to is sex. Sex is physical. Gender is entirely mental and a part of your identity. We are free to choose gender in society after what feels right, and the internet is even more free.

I feel most people saying "this is ridiculous" or "I don't understand why this matters" have not yet realized this distinction.

However, this makes things even more sensitive and I am afraid people are going to abuse these 'extra genders' choices to either troll the community or, even worse, make fun of people who belong into these categories. So, if the community is indeed mature enough for it, then I will support it.
 However, I am not fully convinced for our maturity about gender facts, so I think we shouldn't make such a move for now...
We already have rules in place to discourage, stop, and punish this behavior.

I would be content with an "Other" option. Leaving it blank is not sufficient.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: mesaprotector on November 02, 2012, 06:27:04 pm
As far as I understand it, sex is (mostly) binary. Gender is non-binary and relates to personal identification rather than biology.

That being said, I have no problem with the current Male/Female/_ system. No system of gender would be adequate to capture every possible human gender identity, so I'd rather have a simple model than a more complicated one.

It might, however, be reasonable to add "Other", without going into further details.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on November 02, 2012, 06:32:43 pm
We already have rules in place to discourage, stop, and punish this behavior.

Dear Naesala.
 Seriously, the fact that most people voted for "waffles" shows the level of immaturity of our community in such sensitive things. So, unfortunately, no more than two genders for now. I'm afraid people who belong in a different gender category have to either leave their gender blank or put their sex instead. It is better than treating our fellow people with disrespect. :(
But maybe, just maybe, an 'Other' option could be ok...
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Elbirn on November 02, 2012, 06:57:14 pm
...I assumed "Waffles" meant "I don't know what to make of this." I voted for that, and am in no way being "LOLSORANDOM".
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Kamietsu on November 02, 2012, 07:14:14 pm
I voted waffles because an accurate choice was not made available to my own opinion. I suggest you add "Add Other to gender" as an option to the poll. I would then change my vote.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: majofa on November 02, 2012, 07:15:34 pm
He or She
If not one of those two, then what shall I say?
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on November 02, 2012, 07:24:10 pm
He or She
If not one of those two, then what shall I say?
There are some who belong to He who want to be refered as She and there are some who belong to She who want to be refered as He. Furthermore, there is also neutral gender, known as "It".
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Elbirn on November 02, 2012, 07:26:09 pm
Again keeping in mind that I know little on the subject, I don't think anyone would like being referred to as an "It". I believe "They" is the preferred pronoun when you don't know what gender noun to use.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: RavingRabbid on November 02, 2012, 07:33:58 pm
He or She
If not one of those two, then what shall I say?
There are some who belong to He who want to be refered as She and there are some who belong to She who want to be refered as He. Furthermore, there is also neutral gender, known as "It".

Quote
"It".

Quote
"It".

Quote
"It".

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcgqmaU5V31rdeeego1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: majofa on November 02, 2012, 07:37:49 pm
Again keeping in mind that I know little on the subject, I don't think anyone would like being referred to as an "It". I believe "They" is the preferred pronoun when you don't know what gender noun to use.
They is multiple people.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Elbirn on November 02, 2012, 08:18:25 pm
"The "singular" they is the use of this pronoun as a gender-neutral singular rather than as a plural pronoun. The correctness of this usage is disputed.[1][2] The Oxford Dictionaries have an article on the usage, saying that it dates back to the 16th century"
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Tiko on November 02, 2012, 08:26:11 pm
I'm sorry you got offended, though I understand my wording may have proved to be a bit harsh.

I'm very well aware of the aforementioned distinction between the definition of Sex and Gender, yet I firmly believe that Nature points out our roles rather clearly with the genitalias gifted to us - but this is probably no place for any hint of rejection considering your personal situation that you shared in another topic; so again, I apologize.

But, what you failed to notice in my previous (and admittedly negative) comment by your sudden "rage" is the warning/heed of advice which others already mentioned before me, and the reason why you actually shouldn't get offended: A 'label' like this is an outstanding invitation for malicious people and further offenses or simple ill will - a phenomenon that can be hardly avoided over the internet, either made openly or not -, no matter how many and how strict rules are regulating the Forums, especially considering how sensitive you are (or others may be) in the matter.

Apart from that (like it was also mentioned): this is a gaming community. Even if you're among "friends", others befriend/respect you mostly because of your personality and/or your experience with the game; just be cautious about what you're sharing about yourself with others and be prepared for rejection and/or opinions that could be conflicting with yours.

That said, I'm fine with the addition of 'Other', though I still see it unnecessary.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 02, 2012, 10:55:19 pm
I'm sorry you got offended, though I understand my wording may have proved to be a bit harsh.

But, what you failed to notice in my previous (and admittedly negative) comment by your sudden "rage" is the warning/heed of advice which others already mentioned before me, and the reason why you actually shouldn't get offended: A 'label' like this is an outstanding invitation for malicious people and further offenses or simple ill will - a phenomenon that can be hardly avoided over the internet, either made openly or not -, no matter how many and how strict rules are regulating the Forums, especially considering how sensitive you are (or others may be) in the matter.

That said, I'm fine with the addition of 'Other', though I still see it unnecessary.
Thank you for apologizing. It's was very difficult to understand why there was negative feedback before the subject of potential abuse. I still think people should have the option to choose it and that option coupled  with rules should be enough to regulate it. Rereading, noone seemed to warn about the dangers of potential harassment so much as people being silly if the option was just a place to type. I'd also like to say I wasn't so much enraged as frustrated with responses, hence the spoiler explaining why its so frustrating.

Regarding gender pronouns, i've yet to meet anyone who wants to be called it. They is what some people use, though it bothers people who are hard on grammar. I've also seen "shi hir" "xe xer" "per" "ze" and others. Here's a short article http://nonbinary.org/wiki/Pronouns  . Regarding which to use, generally you ask or use they (which is most widely accepted to my knowledge despite lack of being grammatically correct)
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: OldTrees on November 03, 2012, 07:41:41 am
I would be content with an "Other" option. Leaving it blank is not sufficient.
Why is leaving it blank not sufficient?
Is it that the blank category contains males and females as well?
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 03, 2012, 08:34:41 am
I would be content with an "Other" option. Leaving it blank is not sufficient.
Why is leaving it blank not sufficient?
Is it that the blank category contains males and females as well?
Leaving the option blank implies more of an "I don't want to tell you" or "I don't care to tell you" Other means "I want you to know, but I'm not one of these options"
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: OldTrees on November 03, 2012, 10:06:05 am
I would be content with an "Other" option. Leaving it blank is not sufficient.
Why is leaving it blank not sufficient?
Is it that the blank category contains males and females as well?
Leaving the option blank implies more of an "I don't want to tell you" or "I don't care to tell you" Other means "I want you to know, but I'm not one of these options"
Based on this, I would be in favor of an Other options but recommend against its use. We pigeonhole ourselves way too much in our society. No need to promote dividing people into groups.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: ddevans96 on November 03, 2012, 03:35:30 pm
I would also support adding an Other option to the list.
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 03, 2012, 07:22:06 pm
Poll reset and the "other" option added to the poll. Please revote
Title: Re: More genders?
Post by: Naesala on November 12, 2012, 08:03:10 am
Looks like the majority vote for the "Other" option to be added, and support from at least one admin. Can I get confirmation for this being implemented?
blarg: