KOTH (slowly finding the best T50 deck)

[Kuross]

I agree with many of JMDT points in the above post. If I want to score grind, I go to Elder. If I want electrum, I go to FG. But if I want to get rares, it's T50 I go to.

Catch is, there really isn't reason to grind T50 once you have your limit on rares reached (for me it was 12). Sure, you can get some score or electrum and it may offer a change of pace for most veterns, but it's the newer players looking to make a T50 grinder that want this info the most so it's towards them that the study should be guided.

That said, I think the original data constraints and benchmarks should be adhered to to keep this study on track. If you change now, the previous data should be reexamined to ensure consistency in the results. Also, I am curious, do you take into consideration the time of day/week you test? I know the T50 is a lot different on a Sunday morning versus a Thursday afternoon.

[jmizzle7]

p.s. have you tested RoL/Hope yet? i couldn't see it on page 1 so I wasn't sure :/

RoL/Hope isn't a good top 50 deck because of its slow ttw rate. Also, depending on the makeup of the top 50, there could be a lot of firestorms out, rendering this deck pretty harmless.

[SickPillow]

King Of the Hill

This competition will pit T50 decks against eachother in a one-on-one matchup, to slowly find the best deck against T50 opponents.  Now, most people say: "You can't compare decks in T50! T50 opponents change every day!".  But I say, This is not True. 

For the competition I will play both decks against T50.  I will switch between decks every 10 games.  This way if any changes occur in the T50 decks, it will affect the performance of both decks.  I will play at least 100 games (unless one deck makes me very angry) for both decks, which should assure somewhat comparable statistics.  The win/loss ratio and turns-to-win stats will be compared and one "king of the hill" deck will be crowned.

Post your deck if you wish to challenge the leading KOTH deck.  Otherwise I will make my own pick.

*disclaimer* Please note that I am not playing 10,000 games with each deck, so it is possible that the worse deck can win a match-up.  Also, if i say how your deck "sux SoO hard", plz forgive me 

I quote your 1st post here.  You say that you are looking at 2 criteria to determine the best deck against T50 opponents: win/loss ratio and turns-to-win stats.  I'm pretty sure this part of the post has not changed since this study was started, if so forgive me.  So from the outset, you collected data on win% and ttw, which validates this claim.

Recently you 'changed the rules' to look at all parameters instead of only win%, but I thought, and your 1st post claims, that you were doing this all along.  The title of the study backs up this notion 'KOTH (slowly finding the best T50 deck)'.  Having 2 KOTH would serve little purpose as this study is to find the best deck versus T50.  This study is a novel idea as no one before has studied how well decks perform versus T50.  I hope you test many more decks versus the T50 in the future.

Ultimately where issues lie is that we all have a difference oppinion how to interpret the results.  What exaclty makes the best T50 deck?  That question has a different answer for many people.  It all depends on what the person is looking to do.  Most T50 farmers are looking to get rares as fast as possible.  Some people even skip non farms.  These people would want the fastest deck possible to get their rares efficiently; one that wins fast and also loses fast.  The next large group of people is those who shun the fg's and play T50 for electrum.  If there is a good number of farms out, the electrum for t50 can exceed that from the fg's while actually netting you positive score.  These people also want a fast deck, but would be worried about win % as well.  Before AI3 EM decks were in vogue, T50 was a decent place to farm score, however at the moment, score is more of an afterthough.

So rares, speed, electrum (after selling rares), and win % are the most important factors to the average joe T50 farmer in probably that order.

Looking solely at win% tells only a small portion of the picture when examining a decks performance, especially versus T50.  If you only have 1 data parameter available, then by all means use that for analysis.  When you have say 5 parameters to look at use all the data you have to make your case.

I am not attacking you or your study; I am rather trying to help you develop a an acurate and maningful scientific study.  Look at it as a thesis defence of sorts.  Keep up the good work.

hey jmdt.  i understand where you are coming from..   finding the best deck to play against T50 was my original goal.  That meant finding the most effective deck.  But as i played all the decks and tried to find the winner, i had a hard time nailing down my actual criteria of judging. 
i do like the idea of finding the most effective deck.  But effective can mean two different things.  Most effective in gathering rares, or most effective at winning.

i agree that most people will probably want the deck that is most effective at getting rares in the least amount of time.  This would be your Speed-Grinding deck.

but i also think there are people who are interested in finding the best deck at winning.  The most winning deck possible. 
For example, ME.  I don't play T50 to get rares.  I don't play T50 for score or electrum.  I play T50, because for me it is the most Fun. 
Truthfully i never want to be Grinding.  I don't even like the word.  I want to play T50 because you get the most variety of opponents.  you get fun new decks constantly being created by other players.  To me, T50 IS the endgame.  I like it more than playing FGs, which i do sometimes, and way more than AI3, which i find boring.

Having 2 "king" decks would allow me to search for both the best SpeedGrinding deck, as well as the best "Winning" deck (or "SlowGrinding" lol)
So far I have worked tons on finding the best SpeedGrinder... i don't think making a second "king" deck would detract that much from that study.

The two categories would be very simply labeled, with big arrows pointing to the SpeedGrinder as the deck for fastest "Grinding" of rares.
While the category for "most winningest" deck would be for people like me, who like to play T50 to challenge their deck and have fun.

[plastiqe]

I think a signifigant demographic is playing against the t50 for electurm and rares and they're using unupgraded cards cause they're new and that is all they have.  Finding out which upgraded deck is the king of the hill is all well and good, but I bet there are a lot of people that would like to see the same thing but with unupgraded cards.  I suggest a new study, POTH or prince of the hill for unupped.  : )

Great thread, SickPillow.

Great movie, Tremors.

&feature=related

[jmdt]

I think a signifigant demographic is playing against the t50 for electurm and rares and they're using unupgraded cards cause they're new and that is all they have.  Finding out which upgraded deck is the king of the hill is all well and good, but I bet there are a lot of people that would like to see the same thing but with unupgraded cards.  I suggest a new study, POTH or prince of the hill for unupped.  : )

Great thread, SickPillow.

Great movie, Tremors.

&feature=related

This got me watching tremors, lol.

[SickPillow]

Also, I am curious, do you take into consideration the time of day/week you test? I know the T50 is a lot different on a Sunday morning versus a Thursday afternoon.

I try not to play any matches for KOTH on the day the scores get reset.  There are just too many changes happening on the T50 list right after the reset.  It is hard to get a good "snapshot" of all the decks.. and make sure that the two decks i'm testing actually face somewhat of the same competition.

Also i usually try to play all of the matches in one batch, switching back and forth between the decks as i go.  But sometimes I finish the match in 2 days.  Playing 230 games in a row while keeping stats is sometimes a bit extreme.

Basically i'm trying to maximize the chance that the two decks are facing the same decks. 

[SickPillow]

So... I was too fast in making changes to how i judge the winner.  The new system does not find the most effective deck at getting rares, and does not find the best deck for getting wins in the least amount of time.

The new system looks at score gain per turn.  I thought this value would take into account many factors, such as wins, speed and EMs (and it does this).  But the problem is that Elemental Masteries do not actually help your deck get rares.  Its basically just somewhat of a "bonus".  If you want the fastest speedgrinding deck for the purpose of getting rare cards, then this system of determining the winner fails.

I think I will have to go back to my original idea that i stated in my first post; that decks will be judged by their win rate as well as TTW (ie speed).  Score gain and electrum gain are actually just superfluous information, meant only as another indicator of overall performance.

Winners will be determined by dividing Wins by TTW for both decks, and comparing the results.  The deck with the higher score is the winner.



The whole thing is my mistake.  Changing the winner back and forth is going to be quite confusing to people. 

I will be editing the "new rules" again to reflect these changes.
I will also be adding how I will deal with "abnormal" games (outliers in the data)

AAnnd i will have to throw out the current matchup that I am working on, since the king deck will again be the old shrieker rush.   

[guolin]

I feel left out. Am I the only one who farms T50 for both score and money? (AI3 doesn't give me enough money, AI6 doesn't give me enough score)

[Kuross]

I feel left out. Am I the only one who farms T50 for both score and money? (AI3 doesn't give me enough money, AI6 doesn't give me enough score)

I don't know about anyone else, but if I want to dedicate some time for score grinding, I'll play in L3. If I want electrum, it's off to FGs. If I am bored of either, I'll play T50. For me, the whole point of grinding T50 is for rares. Once I got all I wanted in rares from T50, the only reason I'd ever go back is to tinker with a deck idea and test against T50 or simply play there for a change of pace. In either instance, I wouldn't grind T50 just to grind and I wouldn't play grind decks while doing so. Maybe I am an anomoly, but many others I talk to seem to see it the same way I do.

However, that's not to say this study doesn't have merit, but I think the vast percentage of the viewing audience will be more interested in non-upped decks versus upped grinders. Most newer players graduate from grinding Elder into grinding T50 to get the rares they need (or want) to make FG decks or PvP decks or whatever they really want to build. They are going to want to know the best deck to take down T50 at an non-upped level. Granted most newer players will want to make upgraded decks for T50 just to either have it or because it's more efficient so knowing what to upgrade into will help. But it seems like decks like No Land Stompy play really well non-upped and I believe it does well in T50 so testing that deck versus other fast non-upped decks is the way to go to help newer players evolve in this game.

Just my 2 electrum's worth.

[SickPillow]

Fourteenth Matchup: (The Fall of the King)

For this matchup, there is the reigning champion:

Mono-Earth Shrieker Rush
The classic shrieker rush deck!  Fast and simple.  With the bestest, most overpowered creatures ever created by the zanzarinobeano.

Code: [Select]

6rk 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 77g 77g 77g 77g 77g 77g 77h 77h 77h 77h 77h 77h
Then there is the challenger:

 Napalm Grenade's Fire Rush
This deck was put up for testing by Napalm Grenade.  It is a cremation based fire rush that is similar to the V2 Fire Rush.  However, this deck incorporates 2 explosion cards for permanent control.

Code: [Select]

5f2 5f2 6rl 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dm 7dm 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dp 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7dq 7ds 7ds 7ds 7ds 7f2 809 809 809 809

Results:

I played 100 games for each side, 200 total.  (No farm decks)

Stats!:
 Napalm Grenade's Fire Rush:
Win/Loss= 82/18, 82%
Turns to win (TTW) of 6.54

 Mono-Earth Shrieker Rush:
Win/Loss= 80/20, 80%
Turns to win (TTW) of 6.70


We finally have a new King.  Long live the king.

Shrieker Rush put up a pretty good performance.  It is not the best the deck has done, but an 80% win rate is nothing to complain about.


Napalm Grenade's Fire Rush worked very well.  Even with 2 explosion cards, this deck is usually still a very fast starter.  The deck is fast enough to still be able to win a good percentage vs pure rush decks. 
Two explosion cards may seem like a very small amount of permanent control, but actually it is right around the amount you want for T50.  You don't want to significantly slow your rush by adding tons of perm control, but you do want to be able to destroy 1 or 2 shields.  So having 2 explosion cards seems a very good mix.
While playing i usually kept the explosion card in my hand until a shield, or an eternity was played.  Against some dangerous rainbow decks I would sometimes use it early on an hourglass, but mostly they are for busting shields.

In this matchup, the T50 decks were somewhat favorable to Napalm's Fire Rush.  There was a deck with phase shields and immaterial dragons that was a real problem for the Shrieker rush.  Napalm's fire rush had a better chance vs this deck with the 2 explosion cards.   Also there were not many decks with lots of crowd control.. This is usually where Shrieker rush defeats Fire rushes.

Overall i'm not sure Napalm's fire rush is actually better than Shrieker rush...  but what i do know, is that it won this matchup.  This is the first time any deck has put up a better win% than shrieker, and so finally, the King has been dethroned. 


Scoring:
By the new rules found on page 9 of the thread, the winner is determined by the ratio of: Wins/(TTW)

For Napalm Grenade's Fire Rush: 82/6.54 = 12.54
For Mono Earth Shrieker: 80/6.70 = 11.94

With Adjustments for Overly Long Games: (6 wins were turned into losses)
For Napalm Grenade's Fire Rush: 79/6.23 = 12.68
For Mono Earth Shrieker: 77/6.31 = 12.20

Napalm Grenade's Fire Rush has the higher score and is therefore the winner!

 Winner is Napalm Grenade's Fire Rush

[jmdt]

Wow the shrieker rush lost straight up .

Napalms deck is very good.  Its a hybrid of V2 and a Vreelys picking up the best traits of both.  Actually V2 was based on Napalms 1st version and Napalm has since updated it for speed based on advances from V2.

edit for sickpillow:

here is the link for Napalm's deck (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6960.0.html)

[ddevans96]

I've been watching this closely, and it's a very good study. An idea I had is might try reintroducing other decks you've used before in a couple months when the game environment changes, but it's only a suggestion

And OMG at shrieker rush losing