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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 04:32:34 am

Title: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 04:32:34 am

(http://i.imgur.com/dYrjX.png)	(http://i.imgur.com/9qLgj.png)
NAME: Weeping Angel ELEMENT: Darkness COST: 4  :darkness TYPE: Permanent ATK|HP: TEXT: Weeping Angel becomes a creature while cloaked	NAME: Weeping Angel ELEMENT: Darkness COST: 3  :darkness TYPE: Permanent ATK|HP: TEXT: Weeping Angel becomes a creature while cloaked

ART: public domain: http://www.sxc.hu/photo/252881 IDEA: moomoose, cloaked activated mechanic originally from blood shadow and xenocidius NOTES: inspired by dr who and http://www.toplessrobot.com/2011/08/the_most_terrifying_cat_in_the_who-niverse.php the stats for the angels as creatures is 10|4, to make it worth the while, its effectively a dragon while cloaked, but useless while a permanent. fractal and mitosis effects on the angels as creatures will produce permanents for the first turn of their existence, which will switch to creatures at the end of the turn.  likewise, weeping angels put into play while there is a cloak active will turn into creatures at the end of the turn.  PUd angels as creatures will produce creature copies.  after an angel reverts from a creature back to a permanent, any status effects, damage sustained or any alteration other than immaterial will be removed.  and as such, the only status which will transfer from permanent to as a creature will be immaterial (aka protect artifact). SERIES:

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Dominator497 on August 17, 2011, 04:35:48 am

Nice. I like it. I like the pic too. I think it will work nicely, but don't be afraid to go high. I would agree with you that 10/10 is about good. Maybe even higher.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Anarook on August 17, 2011, 04:38:22 am

This suits well with some other ideas I've been throwing around, namely monsters that turn into permanents, this is the opposite.
I quite like this.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: gumbeh on August 17, 2011, 04:48:12 am

I've seen many game ideas inspired by Weeping Angels.

This is either best or second-best. Your competition: www.pcgamer.com/2011/07/29/meet-the-endermen-minecrafts-terrifying-teleporting-new-enemies/

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Nepycros on August 17, 2011, 04:59:45 am

I think 5 :darkness for a random creature is useless. Fate Egg is a 1-card combo, and only needs 4 :time. This needs 2 cards, and 9 :darkness. Worthless, since you can't even buff it to give it attack.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: GG on August 17, 2011, 07:07:14 am

Quote from: Nepycros on August 17, 2011, 04:59:45 am

I think 5 :darkness for a random creature is useless. Fate Egg is a 1-card combo, and only needs 4 :time. This needs 2 cards, and 9 :darkness. Worthless, since you can't even buff it to give it attack.

Yea... except Fate Egg's totally vulnerable to all CCs especially since it has 1 HP...?


Need some clarification on the card. I originally thought the permanent moves to a creature slot and become a creature 'Weeping Angel'. If it is random creature as Nepycros implied, then I would agree that it's useless.

Also, if the cloak disappears, what would happen to the creature?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Xenocidius on August 17, 2011, 07:40:40 am

"the stats for the angels as creatures is currently up-in-the-air, i was thinking 10|10, to make it worth the while, its effectively a dragon while cloaked, but useless while a permanent."

Quote from: girlsgeneration on August 17, 2011, 07:07:14 am

Also, if the cloak disappears, what would happen to the creature?

The way it's phrased, I think it becomes a permanent again when uncloaked ...

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: RagingAlien on August 17, 2011, 09:42:58 am

Don't Blink.

Anyway, i do kinda like the idea. it'll give Cloak some more <3.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Pwnator on August 17, 2011, 11:46:52 am

zomg that episode was beast

What happens to it when the cloak was removed/negated by the opponent? Does it remain a creature for the remainder of the turn or does it switch back to a permanent immediately? Also, what happens when the perm slots are already full as the cloak disappears?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 11:52:45 am

quick answers-
its not a random creature like fate egg, it stays a weeping angel with set (really good, relatively) stats, the word "random" was not used in the text.

when cloak is removed, i think the most appropriate response is for it to instantly become a permanent again.  in the event that all permanent slots are somehow filled up (rarity, but i suppose a bad deck could manage this), the angel will go poof, and you will have nobody to blame but yourself.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: The_Mormegil on August 17, 2011, 12:30:42 pm

2 cards and a total of 9  :darkness | 7  :darkness... And it lasts only for three turns? That would need to be a hell of a creature, more powerful than most dragons.

Nice little paradox here: if it's not powerful enough the combo won't be worth it, and if it's too powerful it will be broken. I think the best way to deal with it is reducing the cost (a lot) and giving it slightly-less-awesome stats. What about a cost of 3 | 2? That's 2 cards + 7 | 5 quanta, enough to warrant a 9 attack creature...

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 01:30:02 pm

"And it lasts only for three turns?"

it goes back to being a permanent after cloak expires, but it can be brought back with another cloak.  bringing down the costs if a definite consideration

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: GG on August 17, 2011, 01:58:00 pm

Quote from: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 11:52:45 am

quick answers-
its not a random creature like fate egg, it stays a weeping angel with set (really good, relatively) stats, the word "random" was not used in the text.

In that case, you probably should mention the attack/def of the creature form.

A side note... this card might actually be better named as Gargoyle (even though it already exists in game...) since it is known to shift between the creature and the petrified state (permanent).

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 02:06:51 pm

yeah, i had thought about that, but the nerdy dr who reference is kind of fun.  there is room for a deck with both gargoyles and weeping angels

the atk|hp is mentioned in the notes, and is not... set in stone- no pun intended.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Rutarete on August 17, 2011, 05:14:01 pm

This is a really great and clever card!
Perhaps 7/7 for stats?

Also if you buff it while it's a creature, and then a few turns later it goes to a permanent, and back into a creature again, what happens to the buff?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Pineapple on August 17, 2011, 05:24:04 pm

1. Can the creature form be fractaled? If so, then do all the copies turn into permanents when uncloaked?
2. If a mass-effect spell such as Firestorm is used, does the creature form lose 3 HP before turning into a permanent? When you use cloak, does it have a new set of original stats or will the stats be affected by previous spells?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: fenix2011 on August 17, 2011, 05:36:36 pm

I love the concept Moomoose..
I figure it should 'heal/refresh' when it becomes a permanent again.. so it should be like a new card each time it is played (i.e. buffs dont persist, but neither does poison ect).
The fractal part is harder.. maybe it should be non-targetable? its not like the enemy should ever see it.. and that prevents the buff problem too

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Hyroen on August 17, 2011, 05:37:14 pm

This should probably not have too much health such that an AoE damaging card can wipe them out. Perhaps even 1 health?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 05:56:05 pm

good point on fractal- yes, it could be fractaled and those payed to play would come into play as permanents before switching to creatures at the end of the turn.  after cloak goes away, those creatures also turn to permanents. 

the only status/effect that maintains the creature/permanent transition is immaterial/protect artifact (which will appear in both forms), all other alterations are removed upon switching.  if a creature version is damaged but not destroyed, goes to a perm, goes back to a creature again, it will have its base stats.  same goes if you decide to antimatter your creature for whatever reason, the attack will be reset after the swap to perm and swap back to creature.

im not quite sure about making them untargetable as creatures, that would ruin rain of fire and such from being able to destroy them, leaving just fire shield and thorn shield as effective means of killing them in creature form.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: The_Mormegil on August 17, 2011, 06:21:13 pm

Any AoE effectively "kills" these, as Cloak expires. Also, any non-AoE form of CC wouldn't work. PC kills them, but you might be better off with targetting Cloak instead.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 06:27:39 pm

good point on AE spells killing cloak, forgot about that.  and PCs are a one-shot kill on them as permanents, indeed.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: Pineapple on August 17, 2011, 06:35:45 pm

Quote

those payed to play would come into play as permanents before switching to creatures at the end of the turn.

Hmm?

1. Is the fractal'd card Weeping Angel (in the permanent form, as shown as opposed to an entirely new creature card)?
2. When playing Weeping Angels you built into your deck while cloak is in play, do they turn into creatures at the end of the turn or do they turn into creatures once they're played (like nightfall)?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 06:40:28 pm

fractaling creatures copies of the weeping angel card, which always starts as a permanent. they do not immediately go into play as a creature if there is already cloak in place, ill add it to the notes in a bit

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: gumbeh on August 17, 2011, 08:44:28 pm

Quote from: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 06:40:28 pm

fractaling creatures copies of the weeping angel card, which always starts as a permanent. they do not immediately go into play as a creature if there is already cloak in place, ill add it to the notes in a bit

That's probably a good idea. Fractal has enough abuse cases already. We don't need Fractal Weeping Angel OTKs. Besides, that's the same thing that happens when you Fractal a Weapon, right?

PU, though... I don't see a problem with it directly copying the creature. What does everyone else think?

---

Regarding the discussion of CC - RoF already destroys cloak, and Fire has access to Deflag and Fire Shield if the player really wants to kill the Angel.

Pandemonium doesn't get much use or love, however. What if the Angel had 4 hp so that players could get lucky with the occasional Pandemonium-based Shockwave or Lightning? That would make pandemonium finally have a nice instance where RoF isn't the superior choice by default.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: dracomageat on August 17, 2011, 08:53:57 pm

Quote from: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 11:52:45 am

when cloak is removed, i think the most appropriate response is for it to instantly become a permanent again.  in the event that all permanent slots are somehow filled up (rarity, but i suppose a bad deck could manage this), the angel will go poof, and you will have nobody to blame but yourself.

Once cloak has gone "poof" there will be atleast 1 permanent slot available. This will only be an issue if you have two or more angels.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: n00b on August 17, 2011, 09:15:07 pm

I like it moo! When using cloak you hit higher, then cloak goes away and it's back to a permanent! Original, nice pic, and seal-of-approval worthy :)

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 09:32:11 pm

Quote from: dracomageat on August 17, 2011, 08:53:57 pm

Quote from: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 11:52:45 am

when cloak is removed, i think the most appropriate response is for it to instantly become a permanent again.  in the event that all permanent slots are somehow filled up (rarity, but i suppose a bad deck could manage this), the angel will go poof, and you will have nobody to blame but yourself.

Once cloak has gone "poof" there will be atleast 1 permanent slot available. This will only be an issue if you have two or more angels.

well, yeah, that's why i specified it was 1) a rarity and 2) their own fault.

Quote from: Gumbeh on August 17, 2011, 08:44:28 pm

Quote from: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 06:40:28 pm

fractaling creatures copies of the weeping angel card, which always starts as a permanent. they do not immediately go into play as a creature if there is already cloak in place, ill add it to the notes in a bit

That's probably a good idea. Fractal has enough abuse cases already. We don't need Fractal Weeping Angel OTKs. Besides, that's the same thing that happens when you Fractal a Weapon, right?

PU, though... I don't see a problem with it directly copying the creature. What does everyone else think?

---

Regarding the discussion of CC - RoF already destroys cloak, and Fire has access to Deflag and Fire Shield if the player really wants to kill the Angel.

Pandemonium doesn't get much use or love, however. What if the Angel had 4 hp so that players could get lucky with the occasional Pandemonium-based Shockwave or Lightning? That would make pandemonium finally have a nice instance where RoF isn't the superior choice by default.

PU- yeah, PU copies as-is, mitosis and fractal, however make base card copies. good distinction.
pand- sounds like a good idea, 4hp sounds fair.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: RagingAlien on August 17, 2011, 09:48:24 pm

This'll bring so much love to so many cards that need it... This is definitively worth of my extremely rare Seal of Approval.

(http://i55.tinypic.com/15pl85y.jpg)

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: n00b on August 17, 2011, 09:50:45 pm

Wtf? I thought only I could have a seal of approval... it's in the rules. /ban

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: RagingAlien on August 17, 2011, 09:53:34 pm

... i did that picture almost one year and a half ago. so yeah.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: maverixk on August 17, 2011, 10:16:19 pm

What would happen if you managed to get out more weeping angels as creatures than you had open permanent slots?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: RagingAlien on August 17, 2011, 10:18:37 pm

Read the whole thread.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 10:19:02 pm

what do you mean, more angels in play than you have permanents for them to revert back to after cloak?  that is addressed in the notes

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 17, 2011, 10:21:38 pm

lowered the card cost, am hesitant to lower it further due to copying effects, thoughts?

morm's analysis was spot on for a single card, but at risk of being copied, the creatures would become way too efficient even with a 3-4 turn 'limit' on them.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: RagingAlien on August 18, 2011, 12:23:18 am

Hm. I think it's perfect now as it is, so you can submit it to the Crucible already, i think. :D

Quote from: an alien on August 17, 2011, 09:48:24 pm

This'll bring so much love to so many cards that need it... This is definitively worth of my extremely rare Seal of Approval.

(http://i55.tinypic.com/15pl85y.jpg)

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: gumbeh on August 18, 2011, 01:27:59 am

An interesting distinction (one which allows for more intelligent "playing against" options) might be having it drop to Perm status at end of turn instead of instantly when Cloak is lost.

That way, with 4 HP, someone can double up on RoF in one turn (or follow RoF with other CC) if he really, really wants them dead. Which may well be the case if you have 8 of them on the field due to PU or Mitosis.

So it'd be like
(own turn)
PU x2 on some of your existing Weeping Angels

(enemy turn)
RoF, cloak dispelled, 3 x Fire Lance kills 3 Angels, the rest despawn into Permanent form at end of turn. Then you can re-cloak next.

Alternatively, the Permanent form could potentially "remember" stat changes such that when they go back out, the ones that were RoF'd only have 1 HP.

My 2 cents, I prefer options for intelligent counter-play to exist, especially if it's not easy or takes a couple cards to do. My way, Pandemonium MIGHT counter the Weeping Angel in one card, but RoF requires 2 cards and is a guaranteed counter.

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: davidy22 on August 18, 2011, 04:04:59 am

Could you put the stats of the angel in the card text?


Does damage dealt to the weeping angel carry over in between cloaks?

Title: Re: Weeping Angel | Weeping Angel
Post by: moomoose on August 18, 2011, 04:10:54 am

Could you put the stats of the angel in the card text?
-no.

Does damage dealt to the weeping angel carry over in between cloaks?
-if the cloaks are strung together and it does not revert back to a permanent in between, yes, otherwise, no.