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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: ZephyrPhantom on December 26, 2010, 03:46:22 am

Title: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 26, 2010, 03:46:22 am
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd114213/elements_TP3.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd114212/elements_TPE3.png)
NAME:
Temporia
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
5  :time
TYPE:
Weapon
ATK|HP:
4 | 7 If flying.
TEXT:
Weapon : Deal 4 damage at the end of each turn. Retaliation: Deals 1 damage for each enemy attack.
NAME:
Temporia
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
5  :time
TYPE:
Weapon
ATK|HP:
4 | 7 if flying.
TEXT:
Weapon : Deal 4 damage at the end of each turn. Retaliation: Deals 2 damage for each enemy attack.
ART:
Thalas
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
This cards Retaliation effect is blockable by shields. This card is meant to counter rush decks.  It's main weakness is the low damage it gives, which can be blocked with a decent shield (in the case of Solar Shield, it becomes a source of quanta).
SERIES:

Previous Versions:

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd113975/elements_TP.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd113971/elements_TPEv2.png)
NAME:
Temporia
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
6  :time
TYPE:
Weapon
ATK|HP:
4 | 7 If flying.
TEXT:
Weapon : Deal 4 damage at the end of each turn. Retaliation: Deals 2 damage for each enemy attack.
NAME:
Temporia
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
6  :time
TYPE:
Weapon
ATK|HP:
4 | 7 if flying.
TEXT:
Weapon : Deal 4 damage at the end of each turn. Retaliation: Deals 3 damage for each enemy attack.
ART:
Matt Roszak (original at http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/matt-likes-swords/bows-2), Zblader (Edited)
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
This cards Retaliation effect is blockable by shields. This card is meant to counter rush decks.  It's main weakness is the low damage it gives, which can be blocked with a decent shield (in the case of Solar Shield, it becomes a source of quanta).
SERIES:

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd113793/elementsTP.png)
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd113794/elements_TPE.png)
NAME:
Temporia
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
3  :time
TYPE:
Weapon
ATK|HP:
4 | 7 If flying.
TEXT:
Weapon : Deal 4 damage at the end of each turn. Retaliation: Deals 2 damage for each enemy attack.
NAME:
Temporia
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
3  :time
TYPE:
Weapon
ATK|HP:
4 | 7 if flying.
TEXT:
Weapon : Deal 4 damage at the end of each turn. Retaliation: Deals 3 damage for each enemy attack.
ART:
Matt Roszak (original at http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/matt-likes-swords/bows-2), Zblader (Edited)
IDEA:
Zblader
NOTES:
This cards Retaliation effect is blockable by shields. This card is meant to counter rush decks.  It's main weakness is the low damage it gives, which can be blocked with a decent shield (in the case of Solar Shield, it becomes a source of quanta).
SERIES:
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: Nepycros on December 26, 2010, 04:18:36 am
Un problemo.

RoL/Fractal decks are now completely useless. Crank one of these out, and the enemy takes a ton of damage just by clicking End Turn.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 26, 2010, 04:23:38 am
Un problemo.

RoL/Fractal decks are now completely useless. Crank one of these out, and the enemy takes a ton of damage just by clicking End Turn.
My response? Hope.  This card is meant to suck against shields.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: Retribution on December 26, 2010, 04:27:17 am
Way too overpowered.

Think - This + animate weapon x 6 + momentum
The enemy pretty much kills itself.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: Nepycros on December 26, 2010, 04:27:37 am
Oh, so even the 2 points of indirect damage are blocked by shields? Then, my opinion changes drastically.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 26, 2010, 04:36:25 am
 I suppose I didn't clarify this. The 2 |3 damage dealt is blockable by shields (aka it's treated as an attack).  That means if you use a giant creature instead of a lot of weenies, the damage pretty much becomes like 4-8.  Unupped, this card will do only 0-2 damage max against the stronger shields.  Upped, it's effect only gets 1-2 damage through, 0 if Titanium Shield is used.  The only shield this makes sense to use against is Bonewall, because animated Temporias will get easily frozen by Permafrost and immediatly delayed by Proscastination.  Did I mention that Gravity Shield blocks animated ones as well?
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: joebob777 on December 26, 2010, 04:43:48 am
as it stands it is a counter to fractal, pharoah, FFQ, aflatoxin, and boneyard, but it is a way way way way WAY to OP of a counter,

Edit: maximum of 73!!!
dont forget fly weapon momentum, and only shields capable of blockin THAT much damage are, dusk shield, fog shield, phase shield, and bonewall, only 2 of which are common in decks
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 26, 2010, 04:44:44 am
as it stands it is a counter to fractal, pharoah, FFQ, and boneyard, but it is a ?way way way way WAY to OP of a counter
Shields.  That is all I will say.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: Retribution on December 26, 2010, 04:58:45 am
as it stands it is a counter to fractal, pharoah, FFQ, and boneyard, but it is a ?way way way way WAY to OP of a counter
Shields.  That is all I will say.
Momentum.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: joebob777 on December 26, 2010, 05:00:27 am
i just love one word counters
uuum. . . aha
OVERPOWERED
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: Nepycros on December 26, 2010, 05:04:56 am
Joe, you realize that you need a Time/Aether duo centered around a single weapon. You can only ever have 7 out at any time. That requires a ton of preparation.

Wanna throw Crusaders in? Fine, do your best to make a Time/Aether/Light duo. I'm sure you'll do well. [/sarcasm]
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 26, 2010, 05:05:51 am
as it stands it is a counter to fractal, pharoah, FFQ, aflatoxin, and boneyard, but it is a way way way way WAY to OP of a counter,

Edit: maximum of 73!!!
dont forget fly weapon momentum, and only shields capable of blockin THAT much damage are, dusk shield, fog shield, phase shield, and bonewall, only 2 of which are common in decks

Each 2 damage is a serperate damage not a giant piledrive of damage put together.  That means any shield that blocks 2 damage pretty much reduces it's damage to a pathetic 0  | 0-1.  Also...

as it stands it is a counter to fractal, pharoah, FFQ, and boneyard, but it is a ?way way way way WAY to OP of a counter
Shields.  That is all I will say.
Momentum.

Lobotomizer.  CC.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: OldTrees on December 27, 2010, 03:19:32 am
Nice mechanic but surrounded by problems.

1)Time and retaliation do not mesh very well. Darkness is the element that specializes in using the opponent against themselves.

2)Weapons appear balanced at Cost+3=Attack+Skill Value
3+3=4+Retaliation 2
2=Retaliation 2? I don't think so.

3+3+Upgrade[1-2]=4+Retaliation 3
3-4=Retaliation 3? I don't think so.

Suggestion:
Change element to Darkness
Raise cost to 5|5 :darkness to start

This move makes it more thematically appropriate, increases synergy and increases cost to match.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 03:24:14 am
I think Temporia is actually better with Time because time is meant to mess around with creatures.  Also, I feel that Temporia's effect is like accelerated time - when the acceleration ends, the enemy will find himself staring at a rain of arrows.

I could also say it is Eternity's opposite/sibling ; while Eternity is focused on slowing creatures down and stalling, Temporia is focused on quick defeats and speed.

I will increase the cost to 6  :time | 6 :time  though.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: EvaRia on December 27, 2010, 07:08:09 am
Like others, I find that the main problem is that with many of these out, then you do wayyyy too much damage.

Either make it not stack, or I would reduce both retaliations to 1 damage, and make it stoppable by shields. I know that's against what you are after but that's the best way I can think of to balance it.

For the upgrade you could either increase damage dealt or decrease cost to play.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 03:30:49 pm
Like others, I find that the main problem is that with many of these out, then you do wayyyy too much damage.

Either make it not stack, or I would reduce both retaliations to 1 damage, and make it stoppable by shields. I know that's against what you are after but that's the best way I can think of to balance it.

For the upgrade you could either increase damage dealt or decrease cost to play.
*sigh* I am reexplaining this for like the 3rd time.... and from your questions, I imply you have not read the earlier posts, no?

I already made Retaliation blockable by shields.  Also, each 2 | 3 damage from ANY Retaliation is a seperate damage instance, rather than a giant piledrive or stack of damage, so a decent shield would completley shut this down.  Damage from Temporia's retaliation also triggers shield effects, so Permafrost Shield, Procastination, and Gravity Shield will stop animated versions dead cold, and Wings, Boneyard, and Phase Shield would make it do zero damage.  And yes, the upgrade is a 1 damage bonus to each Retialiation instance damage, which can be STILL completley stopped by Hope, Titanium Shield, etc.  Or you could just out-damage the opponent.



Let me provide an example.


I am playing Emeraldtiger.  Tiger has 4 RoL's on the field and I have an unupped Temporia.  He ends his turn and Temporia deals 2 damage for 1 RoL attacking, then does 2 more damage for the next RoL aattack, then 2 more for for the next RoL attack, then 2 last damage for the last RoL attack.(think Adrenaline).

I animate my unupped Temporia and played an upped Temporia.

ET's turn.  He plays Hope. and ends his turn. Now  each Temporia would deal sseperate damage for each attack in this case, so if one RoL attacked, one Temporia would deal 2 damage and then the other would deal three.  However, since ET's Hope blocks 4 damage each time, each instance of 2 or 3 damage would not get through.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: joebob777 on December 27, 2010, 04:50:03 pm
i actually do think this is a good card but a bonewall killer, 23 attacks (most for one weapon) will take down just about any bonewall
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: MadBoat on December 27, 2010, 07:45:24 pm
way too powerful.

I'm thinking of this as a parallel to empathic bond. empathic bond gives you a 1 HP swing per creature, and costs 5. This gives you a 2(or 3?!) HP swing per creature (of your enemies), and deals 4 damage on top of that, and only costs one more?

And you can stop this with shields? Shields shouldn't be a requirement to survive (and then, not every shield would do much to help... fire shield? procrastination?).
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 08:25:25 pm
way too powerful.

I'm thinking of this as a parallel to empathic bond. empathic bond gives you a 1 HP swing per creature, and costs 5. This gives you a 2(or 3?!) HP swing per creature (of your enemies), and deals 4 damage on top of that, and only costs one more?

And you can stop this with shields? Shields shouldn't be a requirement to survive (and then, not every shield would do much to help... fire shield? procrastination?).
There are cards called steal and explosion, learn to use them.  There is also a strategy called out-damaging or out speeding your opponent.  And quite ironically, emphatic bond makes a good counter to this.  Don't use Life Quanta? Use SoG's instead.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: EvaRia on December 27, 2010, 08:47:25 pm
Like others, I find that the main problem is that with many of these out, then you do wayyyy too much damage.

Either make it not stack, or I would reduce both retaliations to 1 damage, and make it stoppable by shields. I know that's against what you are after but that's the best way I can think of to balance it.

For the upgrade you could either increase damage dealt or decrease cost to play.
*sigh* I am reexplaining this for like the 3rd time.... and from your questions, I imply you have not read the earlier posts, no?

I already made Retaliation blockable by shields.  Also, each 2 | 3 damage from ANY Retaliation is a seperate damage instance, rather than a giant piledrive or stack of damage, so a decent shield would completley shut this down.  Damage from Temporia's retaliation also triggers shield effects, so Permafrost Shield, Procastination, and Gravity Shield will stop animated versions dead cold, and Wings, Boneyard, and Phase Shield would make it do zero damage.  And yes, the upgrade is a 1 damage bonus to each Retialiation instance damage, which can be STILL completley stopped by Hope, Titanium Shield, etc.  Or you could just out-damage the opponent.



Let me provide an example.


I am playing Emeraldtiger.  Tiger has 4 RoL's on the field and I have an unupped Temporia.  He ends his turn and Temporia deals 2 damage for 1 RoL attacking, then does 2 more damage for the next RoL aattack, then 2 more for for the next RoL attack, then 2 last damage for the last RoL attack.(think Adrenaline).

I animate my unupped Temporia and played an upped Temporia.

ET's turn.  He plays Hope. and ends his turn. Now  each Temporia would deal sseperate damage for each attack in this case, so if one RoL attacked, one Temporia would deal 2 damage and then the other would deal three.  However, since ET's Hope blocks 4 damage each time, each instance of 2 or 3 damage would not get through.
Whoops, typo. I meant NOT stoppable by shields. I read the posts before this. I understand you want to make a powerful weapon that is weak to shields, but it's a little bit too powerful imo. the maximum amount of any weapon you can get right now is 12 with a PU duo. I don't think the damage should stack. Either leave the retaliation as it is without a stacking effect, or decrease the damage to 1. This means it's a little bit cheaper to play, but weaker cards are also easier to balance than stronger cards.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: EmeraldTiger on December 27, 2010, 08:53:56 pm
My Suggestion: To keep this a Time weapon change the mechanic, since this is a bow like owls/eagles eye i think it would target a creature for 1 damage and delay it. It then should do standard damage comparable to other weapons.

 
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: Thalas on December 27, 2010, 09:01:43 pm
I made some art for the temporia, you can use it if you want. It was really fun first time drawing bow
 (http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd114209/Temporia.png) (http://imageplay.net/)
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 09:13:41 pm
@Evaria: Thanks for the suggestion, that sounds a lot more in tune than what anyone else suggested.
@Emeraldtiger: Nice try, but that doesn't give the feeling of acceleration....
@Thalas: Thank you, I will use it in my next update to the card.

PLANNED CHANGES:
Make the weapon cost 5 :time | 5 :time, and reduce Retaliation to 1 | 2.
Switch out art.


All updates completed.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: MadBoat on December 27, 2010, 09:27:42 pm
way too powerful.

I'm thinking of this as a parallel to empathic bond. empathic bond gives you a 1 HP swing per creature, and costs 5. This gives you a 2(or 3?!) HP swing per creature (of your enemies), and deals 4 damage on top of that, and only costs one more?

And you can stop this with shields? Shields shouldn't be a requirement to survive (and then, not every shield would do much to help... fire shield? procrastination?).
There are cards called steal and explosion, learn to use them.  There is also a strategy called out-damaging or out speeding your opponent.  And quite ironically, emphatic bond makes a good counter to this.  Don't use Life Quanta? Use SoG's instead.
outspeeding him? either I'm going to run lots of little creatures, in which case this weapon is one card that does half the work of the horde of creatures I had to draw(or fractal) and play, or I'm going to use a few big creatures that I squeeze out quickly thanks to cremation or supernova or w/e, in which case you can use eternity or rewind (which, conveniently, are in the same element as this weapon), and I'm boned.

I mean, it's not so stupid as to prevent it from entering the game, but it would alter the metagame enough that permanent control would be much more important; people would have to figure out how to splash fire or dark into all their decks, and that is something I emphatically oppose.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 27, 2010, 09:35:58 pm
outspeeding him? either I'm going to run lots of little creatures, in which case this weapon is one card that does half the work of the horde of creatures I had to draw(or fractal) and play, or I'm going to use a few big creatures that I squeeze out quickly thanks to cremation or supernova or w/e, in which case you can use eternity or rewind (which, conveniently, are in the same element as this weapon), and I'm boned.

I mean, it's not so stupid as to prevent it from entering the game, but it would alter the metagame enough that permanent control would be much more important; people would have to figure out how to splash fire or dark into all their decks, and that is something I emphatically oppose.
Hey, chill. I just nerfed the card.  It should be at least a little more balanced. 
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: OldTrees on December 28, 2010, 01:58:11 am
I still believe that the temporal acceleration of Time is not dependent on the enemy without incorporating Darkness. I believe that this would make a fine Darkness weapon.

However thematic disagreements aside, this card feels more balanced to me now.
It's ability is set at 4|6 :time.

This card claims that on average over a thousand games with this card, the average extra damage per turn would be around 4|6. I think this claim is a little on the low side however playtesting would identify this and a minor cost increase would fix it if it exists.

To those out there that are wise enough to note the metagame changing effect of this card:
The metagame changing to make room for a new strategy invokes an intuitive OP response. However the changing of the metagame is not a good judge of balance until after the dust settles. The old Sundial caused an OP metagame change, the pendulums were a balanced metagame change.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on December 28, 2010, 02:58:03 am
Thank you Oldtrees for explaining the Metagame effect to everyone with experience that I lack.  I hope this card makes a balanced metagame change, as well as encouraging everyone to not use rushing as frequently.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: The_Mormegil on January 02, 2011, 08:51:17 am
As much as I dislike new weapon cards (I think that you should either have 12-13 new weapons, one for each element, or none) I like the mechanics of this. Good work!
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: OldTrees on January 02, 2011, 03:22:50 pm
As much as I dislike new weapon cards (I think that you should either have 12-13 new weapons, one for each element, or none) I like the mechanics of this. Good work!
I have found that solo cards are better quality then thematic based series. (I believe that mechanic based series are better still but are not helpful to Elemental weapons) As such I think that given time a set of 12 solo weapons will individually make there way up to the Armory.
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: LongDono on January 02, 2011, 03:42:56 pm
Un problemo.

RoL/Fractal decks are now completely useless. Crank one of these out, and the enemy takes a ton of damage just by clicking End Turn.
Fire shield.....
Title: Re: Temporia | Temporia
Post by: The_Mormegil on January 02, 2011, 11:49:22 pm
As much as I dislike new weapon cards (I think that you should either have 12-13 new weapons, one for each element, or none) I like the mechanics of this. Good work!
I have found that solo cards are better quality then thematic based series. (I believe that mechanic based series are better still but are not helpful to Elemental weapons) As such I think that given time a set of 12 solo weapons will individually make there way up to the Armory.
Yes, I know, and that's a shame. But I don't mind suggesting new card ideas for weapons (in fact, I'm voting for this and I voted for Khalni Fireblade), I just think if Zanzarino implements one of these, he should implement a weapon for type.
blarg: