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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Temple of [Element] | Shrine of [Element] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg212736#msg212736
« on: November 29, 2010, 08:03:53 pm »
Vote for this in the Water section!
General card:
NAME:
Temple of [Element]
ELEMENT:
{Any}
COST:
1
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
-
TEXT:
:rainbow: [Element] Conversion
Gain 2 quantum of your mark.
If unused, produce :rainbow at the end of your turn.
NAME:
Shrine of [Element]
ELEMENT:
{Any}
COST:
0
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
-
TEXT:
:rainbow: [Element] Conversion
Gain 2 quantum of your mark.
If unused, produce :rainbow at the end of your turn.
NAME:
Temple of Water
ELEMENT:
:water
COST:
1
TYPE:
:water
ATK|HP:
-
TEXT:
:water: Water Convertion
Gain 2 quanta of your mark.
If unused, gain  :water at the end of the turn.
NAME:
Shrine of Water
ELEMENT:
:water
COST:
0
TYPE:
:water
ATK|HP:
-
TEXT:
:water: Water Convertion
Gain 2 quanta of your mark.
If unused, gain  :water at the end of the turn.
ART:
Boret
IDEA:
The Mormegil
NOTES:
The ability can be used once per turn, starting from second turn.
SERIES:
Temple Serie
LIFE TEMPLE, ART BY BORET:
NAME:
Temple of Life
ELEMENT:
:life
COST:
1
TYPE:
:life
ATK|HP:
-
TEXT:
:life: Life Conversion
Gain 2 quanta of your mark.
If unused, gain  :life at the end of the turn.
NAME:
Shrine of Life
ELEMENT:
:life
COST:
0
TYPE:
:life
ATK|HP:
-
TEXT:
:life: Life Conversion
Gain 2 quanta of your mark.
If unused, gain  :life at the end of the turn.
The ideas behind this card are 3:
1) I was thinking of a way to improve quantum management. As it is, you're more or less dependant on pillars/pendulums, and no variety is bad - especially in a game like this - as it offers less ways to play and less ways to make decks. I thought that quanta convertion would be cool, and tried to find a way to do this without making it either UP or OP. I think I made it too UP, but I can change it later.
2) I was trying to make this quantum management in a way as to enhance duo-decks (or trio-decks) more so than, say, rainbow decks. This is intended to enhance duo decks more than any other type of deck.
3) I was trying to get as much control over quantum production as possible, opposing this concept to the pillars one. This is intended to be a way to decide whether or not you would need more quantum of a type or of the other type each turn. It's mechanically much the same as a pillar (see below), but allows for variety.


Discussing Temple vs Pillar and Temple vs Pendulum
- A temple offers two quantum for one quantum. It's a gain, of course, but it's the same gain a pillar grants. The temple's ability isn't Photosynthesis, it can be used ONCE per turn. So it's a fair trade. Effectively, it's a pillar that allows you to choose, every turn, which element it produces between two different elements.
- Pendulums suck. I think they were introduced to make duo-decks more reliable, and with a better quantum base. But they do suck at what they (supposedly) do. The reason is: you want to have consistency on a turn-by-turn base, and not to skip a turn every other. I think many of you have experienced the situation where, for instance, you just played a  :life card, you have 3 quanta left and your pendulums go to  :water production... and next turn you draw an Adrenaline. "Gods, if only I had 1 emerald pillar and 1 sapphire pillar instead of these two crappy pendulums, this wouldn't have happened!" No? Well, that happened to me too often over the course of, like, 60 games or so. I don't think I got unlucky, I think pendulums just don't work. Temples could fix this, while they could also be used at their side to enhance duo-decks even more.

Concerning Temple-->Shrine upgrade
I thought of upgrading the Temples like a Pillar -> Tower, and making it grant another quantum when played. But I reasoned that if I did that, temples would just be strictly better than pillars, and not different. So I had the cost of 1 quantum and no quantum. Mechanically there's the same difference between Temple -> Shrine that there is between Pillar -> Tower (one quantum), but Temples trade speed for variety.

Concerning Clusters
Should the Temples be grouped in Clusters?

With clusters:
- less permanent slots occupied
- affected by earthquake and quicksand
- probably no way to determine how many times you used their ability, and how many times you can use it again (it should be noticed, also, that making it so that you can use their ability only once per cluster would make temples mostly pointless, really).

Without clusters:
- remaining permanent slots starts to be an issue
- no EQs on these quantum producers
- more easy and controllable abilities' interface

My opinion is, they should be clustered, and coded so that their ability has a number of uses equal to the number of temples in the cluster. This is because otherwise Temples would have a VERY unfair advantage on other quantum producers, because they would be immune to earthquakes. Even as it is, splitting your quantum base on three different sources could be an issue for gods such as Seism...

Concerning same-element Temple
Temples of your own element can be (ab?)used to gain your quantum in advance. That's a great advantage, and one I didn't think of when I made these. Although I think limiting their ability to only a turn AFTER they are played (same as other permanents), along with the cost, will make them slower on the start. Enough so that pillars will still be a common choice in rush decks, while temples could be the best source for "slower and deadlier" decks (mono-Aether stall, for instance).
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg212821#msg212821
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2010, 09:28:23 pm »
Wow.

Great idea and analysis. We need more diverse forms of quanta generation. Thank you.

This costs 1 quanta (Is it random or is the :Entropy symbol missing?) more than either a Pillar|Tower or a Pendulum.
This does not form stacks. (Correct me if I am wrong)
However it has better synergy with Quantum Pillars, Nova, Immolation and Rustler.

This does not appear to be strictly superior to either Pillars or Pendulums and it increases the diversity of Quantum Generators and Quantum Distributions.

A few potential problematic synergies (I do not think any of these is a problem but I expect them to be raised)
  • Quantum Pillars and a diverse collection of Temples in a stall deck.
Quantum Pillar produces 3 quanta a turn creating stores of off element quanta.
As Temples are drawn they begin to filter that quanta into on element quanta.
Result: Slow refinement of 3 quanta per turn.
Conclusion: Would be too slow for mono or duo. Might improve Trio and Tetra. Might make Penta viable.
  • Nova and Immolation and a diverse collection of Temples instead of Pillars
Similar to the Quantum Pillars.
Nova and Immolation create off element quanta.
Desirous quanta types are ignored (Earth and Time for Graboid and Precog, Entropy and Darkness for Lycanthrope)
Less desirous quanta types are turned into a more useful kind. (Earth or Fire)
Result: Partial Speedbow that is not punished for using every element.
Conclusion: This seems way too slow to be a problem.
  • Rustler
Rustler, Life Temples and Light Mark
Result: Life Temples produce  :life :life :life each turn.
Conclusion: That is only slightly more potent than Light Pillars [ :life :life] so I do not think it is a problem.
[/list]


One very important detail though:
All art must be provably copyright free.
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Offline AnonymousRevival

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg212830#msg212830
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 09:35:12 pm »
I thought there was this temple series in which someone made before.
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg212844#msg212844
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 09:46:55 pm »
This costs 1 quanta (Is it random or is the :Entropy symbol missing?) more than either a Pillar|Tower or a Pendulum.
This does not form stacks. (Correct me if I am wrong)
It's supposed to be random, but may be converted to entropy. I thought that limiting it to entropy would be bad since that way you need to play entropy pillars / novas also, otherwise you would never be able to play it. And that's sort of against the purpose of this card.

Also, it should form stacks (otherwise it would create problems in permanents heavy decks) as this is supposed to be another quantum production method. BUT, that would pose a problem for the skill: how do you check how many times you used it? It would be kind of a problem, but I believe it's a solvable one.

Quote
One very important detail though:
All art must be provably copyright free.
Yeah, I know, but that's not even in the Crucible yet. Give the community some time to digest the card and criticize it, I'll either change the image or create one myself for it. The name is just as random, really... It could be quite anything.

@Anonymous: if it was, I didn't know that. I rather doubt this idea was proposed before, but if I copied the name from someone I did that unintentionally - after all, I'm fairly new to the community...
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Offline AnonymousRevival

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg212856#msg212856
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 09:58:15 pm »
Ignotum venit retro vivere. :aether :light

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg212863#msg212863
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 10:02:47 pm »
Yes, it IS a completely different idea... But if the owner of the serie has something to object I will change the name of the cards. I will send a message to him.
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Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg213242#msg213242
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2010, 02:59:13 am »
i take it that since you are trying to help duo decks there will be an element for each temple, cause i dont know much duos for entropy only monos and speedbows

Offline Nepycros

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg213244#msg213244
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2010, 03:01:00 am »
:entropy / :darkness , :entropy / :fire , soon to be :entropy / :death with the cat.
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg213560#msg213560
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2010, 01:00:28 pm »
Yes, as I stated it's supposed to be the first of a serie. One for each element, of course, all with the same format. I started from Entropy because it's the first on the list, that's all.

And I made just one, as I said, to explain the mechanism before creating 1857654678959 threads on effectively THE SAME CARD, just in different colors.
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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg213581#msg213581
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2010, 02:05:13 pm »
When you do expand this into the series you could just use one thread like Quantum Flash (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,5983.0.html) for this series of identical cards.
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg213583#msg213583
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2010, 02:09:44 pm »
Well that'd be nice. How did he do that gif? O.o
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Temple of Entropy | Shrine of Entropy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=16622.msg213681#msg213681
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2010, 05:06:47 pm »
An idea: would you like this card better if it was named "Entropic Engine" (thus part of an Engine serie)?
I find that it would be more in touch with the general feel of Elements...
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

 

blarg: