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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: johannhowitzer on March 27, 2011, 05:11:54 pm

Title: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 27, 2011, 05:11:54 pm
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/55/summerd.png)
(http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/8567/summer2.png)
NAME:
Summer
ELEMENT:
Fire
COST:
5 :fire
TYPE:
Permanent - Weapon
ATK|HP:
6|2 when flying.
TEXT:
Weapon: deal 6 damage at the end of every turn.
 :fire : Your creatures gain +2|0 for 1 turn but take 1 damage.
NAME:
Summer
ELEMENT:
Fire
COST:
5 :fire
TYPE:
Permanent - Weapon
ATK|HP:
7|2 when flying.
TEXT:
Weapon: deal 7 damage at the end of every turn.
 :fire : Your creatures gain +2|0 for 1 turn but take 1 damage.
ART:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Firesword.png
IDEA:
johannhowitzer
NOTES:
The damage is dealt to the creatures immediately, and will kill a creature with less than 2 health before it can hit your opponent.
The +2|0 is added to current attack only, similar to how Dive works.  Attack will return to normal at the end of the turn.
SERIES:
New Elemental Weapons (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,26231.0.html)
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: Leo on March 27, 2011, 05:46:50 pm
It's OP and Fahrenheit is already strong enough, imo.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 27, 2011, 06:04:54 pm
Explain why, please.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: OldTrees on March 27, 2011, 07:16:45 pm
Nice.

Sacrificing a creature seems like a good way to balance creating more Fire Bolts.
Likewise creating more cards seems like a good new use for a sacrifice cost.

Seems balanced to me but playtesting would be needed to verify of course.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on March 27, 2011, 07:20:10 pm
"Let me say this to start...."
That was a great art find.

Oldtrees pretty summed up my thoughts here. Decent weapon, balanced and new mechanic based around old concepts.

Again, great art! :)
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 27, 2011, 07:34:42 pm
I probably don't need to say this, but I was tickled to find such impressive art on the first page of my Google search - and Wikimedia Commons, no less!  Every so often, you just get lucky.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: RealGod on March 27, 2011, 08:16:12 pm
I think the upgraded version, instead of gaining more attack power, should have it's skill cost lowered (maybe to 1 or 2  :light instead?)  Sacrificing a creature and costing 3 :light is too much just to generate one fire bolt.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 27, 2011, 08:21:18 pm
Mm, that was a possibility that crossed my mind, but I wanted some outside perspective before I went with it.  Since the ability here gets around the 6-card rule like Fractal, I wanted to put more balancing factors in play and have to remove some later, rather than the opposite.

I'll let this stew for a while and see what other people might have to say.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: TimerClock14 on March 27, 2011, 09:22:02 pm
CURATOR COMMENT:
-Please remove the text from the SERIES section of your table
-Please fix the TYPE section of your table, if you wish to specify that it is a weapon you may do so in the NOTES section, but please change it so that it reads as Permanent instead of Permanent - Weapon.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 27, 2011, 09:25:49 pm
Huh.  First time I've been called on either of those points - Winter and Ulundaris have "Permanent - Weapon", and every single one of my card ideas has "None" under Series.  Including three in the Armory.  I'm not complaining, if you still want me to make these changes, I will.  But should I change all my other card topics too?
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: TimerClock14 on March 27, 2011, 10:15:28 pm
Quote from: johannhowitzer on March 27, 2011, 09:25:49 pm
Huh.  First time I've been called on either of those points - Winter and Ulundaris have "Permanent - Weapon", and every single one of my card ideas has "None" under Series.  Including three in the Armory.  I'm not complaining, if you still want me to make these changes, I will.  But should I change all my other card topics too?
This is true, I'm not quite sure what to do with this. (pardon my newbieness) I'll talk with Kuroaitou about it.

EDIT: talked with kuro. You're all green on this. I'll move it ASAP.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 28, 2011, 10:42:21 am
Haha, thanks.  I'm all for following the rules, but I'm also all about consistency!

Incidentally, having "Permanent - Weapon" and "Permanent - Shield" under the "Type" field makes sense, as those are definitely types of Permanent.  I know the Advanced Guide says to only put Creature, Spell, or Permanent, but I disagree.  :)
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 29, 2011, 03:58:10 am
I've been rolling the balance issue RealGod brought up around in my head since he said it, and I think I've analyzed it well enough for now.  :light :light :light is a reasonable cost, I think.

There are two types of decks I see running Summer for its Fire Bolts.  The first is a :fire - heavy deck for pumping the spells, with maybe Light mark or Rays of Light.  In that case, 3 :light from each RoL isn't an unreasonable amount, especially considering it would be run in a stall-type deck; running from just mark, that's still a new Fire Bolt every three turns.

The other deck type is a :light - heavy deck that runs with Crusaders and a Fire mark or perhaps Immolation to burst the quanta necessary to play one Summer card.  In this case, you'd have a creature that costs 5 :light to play, 2-3 :light to Endow, then 3 :light repeatable for a Fire Bolt card, which is between the cost of Red Nymph and Owl's Eye.

It's possible that an ability cost of :light :light would be more balanced, but it looks fine for now.  The creature sacrifice is of far greater concern to the player.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: Newbiecake on March 29, 2011, 04:49:42 am
Sorry, but we probably don't need another card for Fire/Light stalls with creatures. Great concept though. It's just the existence of Fire stalls that annoys me.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on March 31, 2011, 02:08:53 am
Quote
Sorry, but we probably don't need another card for Fire/Light stalls with creatures. Great concept though. It's just the existence of Fire stalls that annoys me.
Can't say I've ever seen a Fire Stall that used Light splash of any kind.  I guess you could throw in Sanctuaries (which IMO need to be rebalanced a bit) and maybe a Reflective Shield to prevent Lance decks (Fire Buckler is more useful overall), but there really aren't any Light cards that fit the Fire Stall concept.  There are rushes, of course, like the classic Rangel, but rushes aren't stalls.

Your personal annoyance with a specific deck type doesn't reflect on the balance of this card or its appropriateness for the game, sorry.  I believe this card would be a good addition to the game, though we haven't seen it in action so this is still all just informed conjecture.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: Avenger on April 03, 2011, 08:50:06 am
Haven't you? Then where they get their sanctuaries.

here are a few used in UW:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23841.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23684.0.html
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23725.0.html
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on April 03, 2011, 06:00:11 pm
Yes, I mentioned Sanctuary.  And I said it needs to be rebalanced - it's becoming the new Shard of Gratitude, especially for events that prohibit use of Shards.  Did you notice all three Sanctuary-boosted Fire stalls went undefeated?
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: ddevans96 on April 03, 2011, 06:10:43 pm
Quote from: johannhowitzer on April 03, 2011, 06:00:11 pm
Did you notice all three Sanctuary-boosted Fire stalls went undefeated?
Ironically, even the one that lost.

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,23779.msg324431#msg324431

Sanctuary firestall is only doing well because people don't know how to counter it yet. I guarantee that will be different in later rounds.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: ShiningSword on April 03, 2011, 06:29:14 pm
I am worried about this card in sanc fire stalls. I mean, it would allow a deck to start spiting out firebolts like crasy(consider firebolts are the most powerful CC when used in a fire stall, because of how fast can it can get dangerous levels of fire quanta).
Add pheonixes to have infinite sacrifices, and a mirror shield so taking out the fahrenheits doesnt make you vulnerable, and you have a deck that will have an infinite supply of firebolts(and enough fire quanta to make them deadly).
The opponent will have to pack CC for pheonixes(make it good CC for pheonixes, because some CC wont work well) or PC for summer, or otherwise he will be crushed by a hailstorm of bolts.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on April 04, 2011, 05:09:07 am
Phoenix (not "pheonix") is one card I didn't take into account.  That might be cause for concern... perhaps I'll revisit the sacrifice end of this card.

As for sanc fire stalls... if the opponent can counter them, he can also counter Summer.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on April 30, 2011, 08:53:26 pm
Considering several alternate abilities for this, as I couldn't figure out a way to balance what it currently does, in light of Phoenix.  None of the following would require a creature sacrifice.

1. Intensity: all spells deal 1 extra damage.  Works well with Fire, although in Lance decks Fahrenheit would still be more practical, as it deals more damage in the long run.  Damage for Fire Bolt, Ice Bolt, and Drain Life would be +1 on the first bolt only, to prevent abuse by Lance decks.  Only problem is that it doesn't make much sense for a fiery blade to boost an icy spell.  DOES boost Unstable Gas, both against a player and creatures; this would boost Air/Fire combos.

2. Torch: all friendly creatures gain +2|0 for one turn, but take 1 damage.  A one-shot temporary Field Acceleration.  Fire creatures already have low HP (except grown Golems), so there's some inherent balance... the damage would be permanent, but the increase would be to the current attack stat, not maximum - it will reset at the end of the turn like Dive or Sky Blitz.  Because the damage is dealt immediately, a creature with less than 2 HP remaining, like a Phoenix, would just be killed.  This may even work with a Fire ability cost, instead of duo.  Stackable with flown or endowed Summers.

3. Ignite: may destroy inflammable shields instead of dealing damage.  Similar to Winter, but with a permanent effect with a lower chance to strike.  Yes, it is renewable PC for Fire... but it's limited to the opponent's shield slot only.  Certain shields are immune; if the shield is immune or there's no shield, Summer will always just deal damage.  Here's a list of shields that would have, say, a 10-20% chance to be destroyed:

 :light - Solar Shield
 :darkness - Dusk Shield
 :life - Thorn Carapace
 :death - Skull Shield (Bone Wall loses one point no matter how you slice it anyway)
 :water - Ice Shield
 :air - Fog Shield (Summer is not ranged, so not Wings)
 :gravity - Gravity Shield (little point though, as Fire creatures usually ignore it)
 :time - Procrastination

Because of the fact that this list is rather short and contains no immaterial shields, the raw damage of Summer would be increased to probably 7|8.  Protect Artifact is ignored for shields on this list.

I like all three of these ideas - I am reserving the ones I don't use, to make other cards out of them!  Don't go idea-theftin' me, now.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: OldTrees on April 30, 2011, 09:04:00 pm
Quote from: johannhowitzer on April 30, 2011, 08:53:26 pm
I like all three of these ideas - I am reserving the ones I don't use, to make other cards out of them!  Don't go idea-theftin' me, now.
Someone beat you to Intensity. (some Fire non weapon permanent within the last 2 weeks)
Torch looks like a good idea.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 01:11:11 am
OK, here's the million-dollar question... how do I explain Torch in the space available on a weapon card?
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on May 01, 2011, 01:13:32 am
Quote from: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 01:11:11 am
OK, here's the million-dollar question... how do I explain Torch in the space available on a weapon card?
Make the ability say:
"Torch :  All friendly creatures gain +2| -1 for 1 turn."
This works considering Rage Potion and Overdrive only damage the target creature instead of actually lowering Max HP.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 01:19:49 am
See, I considered that, but that makes it sound like the 1 damage is temporary.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 01:27:45 am
Would this work?
"﷯﷯﷯: Your creatures gain
+2|0 for 1 turn but lose 1 hp."
It will fit for Activation Costs of 1-3
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 01:34:46 am
That's slightly too long.  The first two lines say "Weapon: deal X damage at the end of every turn."  There's very little room left.

Maybe it'll come to me in a dream tonight...

EDIT: " :fire : Your creatures gain +2|0 for 1 turn but take 1 damage."  It's a little sloppy, and 1 :fire activation cost might be too low.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: Vipy5 on May 01, 2011, 01:39:10 am
This card seems good, but why not (going with original idea) change the elements of the cost? I don't actually know if this would work but it seems like noone else has brought it up
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 01:44:26 am
Quote from: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 01:34:46 am
That's slightly too long.  The first two lines say "Weapon: deal X damage at the end of every turn."  There's very little room left.

Maybe it'll come to me in a dream tonight...

EDIT: " :fire : Your creatures gain +2|0 for 1 turn but take 1 damage."  It's a little sloppy, and 1 :fire activation cost might be too low.
Change "take 1 damage" to "lose 1 hp" if the activation cost needs to increase (I tested it and it fits  :fire :fire :fire and the rest in 2 of the 4 lines leaving room for the Weapon clause.)
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 01:55:56 am
Quote
This card seems good, but why not (going with original idea) change the elements of the cost? I don't actually know if this would work but it seems like noone else has brought it up
The original was duo-element because the effect was so powerful.  Because Fire creatures tend to have very low HP, this weapon can be mono-Fire without being too powerful; to get the most out of it, you probably want to use it in combination with other stuff.

I am also enhancing the art for this a little, I didn't like the plain black background.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: Vipy5 on May 01, 2011, 02:01:56 am
By that I meant why not make it entropy? Or earth? etc.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 02:18:33 am
Updated with new mechanic and art!  If you haven't voted for this card (or even if you have), give it a look-see.  I am happy with it... not as happy as with Reprisal, but still.  :D
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: Jocko on June 02, 2011, 02:24:41 am
If the effect damages the creatures instantly, shouldn't the card read 2|-1?
With the current wording, i understood they attacked before getting damage.
Title: Re: Summer | Summer
Post by: OldTrees on June 02, 2011, 03:14:13 am
Quote from: Jocko on June 02, 2011, 02:24:41 am
If the effect damages the creatures instantly, shouldn't the card read 2|-1?
With the current wording, i understood they attacked before getting damage.
+2|-1 for 1 turn would indicate that the damage is temporary. It is not temporary hence it is in a separate sentence.
blarg: