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Offline Pineapple

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg466006#msg466006
« Reply #84 on: February 29, 2012, 08:45:34 pm »
except that the ability is usually linked to the element of the ability, through the 1) payment of the weapon and sometimes 2) association of the cost of the ability or effect of the ability (Fahrenheit).  this card has no association with gravity, but takes the gravity pull from gravity anyway.

and to your point of "if it isnt triggered by blah blah blah it isnt a shield"  it is too a shield without gravity pull, it just would rarely be triggered, unless someone put gravity pull on it.  but as has been said, changing the cost of the ability to gravity may help alleviate that issue of the card.
I only have one point. It's that all aspects of this card are thematically justified. You are not only trying to force your own system of card design onto others but also trying to unbalance a card that is currently balanced so that it becomes next to useless. There's a reason that this card is in the Forge, but if you can't grasp the reason then it's the fault of your system, not Daguerreo's.

1) I can think of 3 and only 3 elements that have a justification to use a bodyguard mechanic. Gravity (Armagio), Earth (Warden) and Light. Gravity Pull in the case of Royal Guard is being used purely mechanically without also bringing the thematic excuse for the effect that Gravity uses. Is this optimal design? It is on the low end of Forge quality but nowhere near the mechanical-theme linkage of Crusader.

2) Yes, similar cards have been made before. The authors of the two most relevant threads got me to reluctantly agree that they might be sufficiently different from each other. At that point I let the community finish deciding.
1) Do you suggest that optimal design can only be achieved if we submit to the elemental monopolization of whole mechanics? The problem that I see with restricting mechanics into elements is that we must adhere to the most recent version of the game and update taboos accordingly. Imagine if we were still playing the Elements version where alchemy cards, such as Basilisk Blood, did not exist. Would "delay" not be a purely Time skill? What about Pufferfish and scorpions, poisoning outside of Death? Would Zanzarino be the only authority who could fix these elemental niches?

If optimal design restricts creativity as such, then I must argue that it's not very optimal at all.

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg466015#msg466015
« Reply #85 on: February 29, 2012, 09:09:47 pm »
1) I can think of 3 and only 3 elements that have a justification to use a bodyguard mechanic. Gravity (Armagio), Earth (Warden) and Light. Gravity Pull in the case of Royal Guard is being used purely mechanically without also bringing the thematic excuse for the effect that Gravity uses. Is this optimal design? It is on the low end of Forge quality but nowhere near the mechanical-theme linkage of Crusader.

2) Yes, similar cards have been made before. The authors of the two most relevant threads got me to reluctantly agree that they might be sufficiently different from each other. At that point I let the community finish deciding.
1) Do you suggest that optimal design can only be achieved if we submit to the elemental monopolization of whole mechanics? The problem that I see with restricting mechanics into elements is that we must adhere to the most recent version of the game and update taboos accordingly. Imagine if we were still playing the Elements version where alchemy cards, such as Basilisk Blood, did not exist. Would "delay" not be a purely Time skill? What about Pufferfish and scorpions, poisoning outside of Death? Would Zanzarino be the only authority who could fix these elemental niches?

If optimal design restricts creativity as such, then I must argue that it's not very optimal at all.
1) Monopolization? No. My example even contradicts that. (3 =/= 1)

Optimal design is when every last component of a card is in harmony with every other component of the card. Not only is there consistent harmony but the total harmony of the optimal design is at the theoretical maximum for that suggestion.

For instance does the activated ability harmonize with its implementation as an activated ability? How do the alternate implementations compare? This linkage is fairly optimal. The only potential challenger is an automatic active that updates whenever the controller's shield is changed/destroyed. That challenger seems slightly subpar compared to the use of an activated ability in this case.

Back to the topic of the harmony of the link between mechanics and element. I use a 3 stage model as a guideline/rule of thumb. The first stage is the element or elements that have a direct thematic link to the mechanic. In this stage we see that mechanic exaggerated and displayed as central to the card (RNG in Pandamonium). The second stage is the elements that have an indirect thematic link to the mechanic. Perhaps by using a specific exception at the boundary of the mechanic. In this stage we see the mechanic used but not exaggerated (RNG in Thorn Carapace). Finally we have the stage where the theme of the elements are antithetical to the mechanic in all cases (RNG vs Gravity). You may review the examples you provided and see how they fit in this model.

So I feel that Light using Gravity Pull would fall in stage 2. Light using a mechanic to shield its owner would fall in stage 1. However the implementation of Gravity Pull in Royal Guard was more similar to the implementation of a stage 1 link and not optimally fitting a stage 2 link.
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Offline Anarook

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg466021#msg466021
« Reply #86 on: February 29, 2012, 09:29:30 pm »
It's a bit late at this point, but what if teh creature gained the shields abilities, but did NOT recieve gravity pull?
In this way it would force a 2 card combo for the same effect while sitll providing light a renewable source of defesne shoudl you choose to make use of the combo.

On another note, regarding the optomization, I fele it is put off even more simply by the way he had to bend the machanic to make the card work.
Ex: The changes he made for some shield effects when this cards ability is activated.
If the card we're truly optimal, there would be little/no need for exceptions to be drawn.

Now if the card introduced soemthnig enw entirely, say a unique effect depending on the element, then this would be justified as the card idea itself would require a description of the individual effects.
But shields(from which this card bases it's ability) are a said and done thing, having to work around them threw this card off from the beginning.

On a side note, please avoid personal conflicts in someone elses topic. It's rude to the creator and discourages other users from wanting to look at what valid points may lay in said posts.
If we're going to debate a card idea, make it civilized, look at things subjectively please.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg466023#msg466023
« Reply #87 on: February 29, 2012, 09:38:24 pm »
It's a bit late at this point, but what if teh creature gained the shields abilities, but did NOT recieve gravity pull?
In this way it would force a 2 card combo for the same effect while sitll providing light a renewable source of defesne shoudl you choose to make use of the combo.
This would cause a forced combo. (aka it would need Gravity Pull to do anything) Forced combos are flawed design. The current version is preferable to a forced combo version.
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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg466060#msg466060
« Reply #88 on: February 29, 2012, 11:17:08 pm »
I think it's unupped effect should only take your opponents shield.

Offline moomoose

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg466063#msg466063
« Reply #89 on: February 29, 2012, 11:23:54 pm »
actually the card without gravity pull could be given an attack value and the shield it gains would be a means of anti-cc. 

but a better solution would be either changing the ability cost to 2x gravity, or simply "this idea has been done before, lets go eat icecream"
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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg477286#msg477286
« Reply #90 on: April 02, 2012, 09:09:00 pm »
People, pleeeease stop seeing this as "ohh Crusader for Shields! It must be good!" and take a deeper look at this card!
Read through the entirety of this topic, work it out in your own head, and if you still don't notice something wrong, then by all means waste a vote.
But please stop doing the "take a glance, looks pretty, must be the best card ever" and think it through before placing a vote on this card!

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Offline Ikerpeta

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg484658#msg484658
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2012, 04:11:36 am »
Mihht do pretty cool combos with earth for example, it can copy untargeteable shields too?

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg484661#msg484661
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2012, 04:13:18 am »
Mihht do pretty cool combos with earth for example, it can copy untargeteable shields too?

No, just as Crusader can not use Endow on Morning Glory.

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg1063277#msg1063277
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2013, 01:40:32 am »
 GP only combines with gravity, but copying the shield opponent is a great suggestion for a creature
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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg1063590#msg1063590
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2013, 03:46:03 am »
please don't revive dead topics..
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Offline moomoose

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Re: Royal Guard | Royal Guard https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34759.msg1063859#msg1063859
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2013, 09:43:51 pm »
especially not this one, i had almost forgot about this debacle.
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