Revenant | Wight [Legacy - Forge]

[ZephyrPhantom]

I think Eclipse maybe SHOULD kill this, actually.

But wouldn't a Zombie benefit from Nighttime?

Bump for Crucible submission.

[ZephyrPhantom]

Now in Crucible!

[ZephyrPhantom]

Thanks to everyone who has voted this for the Forge! Keep up the support!

[blarp]

It's kinda expensive for not that great a monster. an undying 4 att creature doesn't really matter imo. And it become overpowered if you combine this with rage potions or a fire nymph. you might be able to kill one or 2 of these but if your deck revolves around this card it definitely would become broken with rage potion

[justaburd]

holy light hurts death creatures, zblader. I can't recall anything that heals death creatures, besides purify.

[ZephyrPhantom]

holy light hurts death creatures, zblader. I can't recall anything that heals death creatures, besides purify.

"Healing" is defined as any card that would usually heal a targeted creature, or increase it's HP through other means. That means any healing/buff card (including Holy Light) can kill it if it targets. Undying is an active ability.

[AP579]

I don't think so. It's a death card. Simply because of that, it NORMALLY doesn't get buffed by Holy Light. Holy light doesn't buff darkness/death cards. It NORMALLY dies. So it should not die from holy light.

Btw, the only ways to heal creatures are the heal ability from angels and mutants, purify, and holy light. So it doesn't really matter anyway.

[ZephyrPhantom]

I don't think so. It's a death card. Simply because of that, it NORMALLY doesn't get buffed by Holy Light. Holy light doesn't buff darkness/death cards. It NORMALLY dies. So it should not die from holy light. By videogame logic, Holy Light would be an instakill to zombies. I don't see why this would be an exception.

Btw, the only ways to heal creatures are the heal ability from angels and mutants, purify, and holy light. So it doesn't really matter anyway. Healing and buff cards can kill it. That extends the possible killrange to cards that increase HP such as Chaos Power and Basilisk Blood.

[Absol]

1. Revenant dies if healed.
2. creatures will be hurt if targeted by Holy Light (heal target 10 HP, if or deal damage instead).
3. Revenant does not die if hurt (Holy Light hurts in this case, see #2)

[ZephyrPhantom]

1. Revenant dies if healed.
2. creatures will be hurt if targeted by Holy Light (heal target 10 HP, if or deal damage instead).
3. Revenant does not die if hurt (Holy Light hurts in this case, see #2)

Again, what is the thematic justification for Holy Light not killing a zombie?  One of the reasons I implemented the 'dies from usual healing' clause is because several "lich" and "necromancer" ideas before this one attempted to imitate the lichification/Holy Light-kill concept with negative HP cards instead, only to find that it created a design wall regarding interaction with Eclipse.

[Absol]

1. Revenant dies if healed.
2. creatures will be hurt if targeted by Holy Light (heal target 10 HP, if or deal damage instead).
3. Revenant does not die if hurt (Holy Light hurts in this case, see #2)

Again, what is the thematic justification for Holy Light not killing a zombie?

What is a mechanic justification for Holy Light killing a zombie? (this card doesn't die if damaged, then if Holy Light damages it, it shouldn't die mechanically)
Revive kills zombie, i know, but look at the mechanics too.

[ZephyrPhantom]

1. Revenant dies if healed.
2. creatures will be hurt if targeted by Holy Light (heal target 10 HP, if or deal damage instead).
3. Revenant does not die if hurt (Holy Light hurts in this case, see #2)

Again, what is the thematic justification for Holy Light not killing a zombie?

What is a mechanic justification for Holy Light killing a zombie? (this card doesn't die if damaged, then if Holy Light damages it, it shouldn't die mechanically)
Revive kills zombie, i know, but look at the mechanics too.

Wouldn't you find it slightly difficult to suspend your disbelief when a usual zombie counter doesn't work in a fantasy game of magic (especially since said Zombie counter works on just about everything else in it's element including other undead)?

IMHO, theme and mechanics have to connect:

Mechanic: Holy Light damages all and creatures.
Theme: Revive is implied to kill zombie.

Mechanic: Revenant uses a zombie mechanic to avert damage but dies if healed.
Theme : Revive is implied to kill zombie.


Mechanic: Without any specified clauses, Holy Light deals 'damage' to Revenant. Revenant does not die.
Thematic: Conflict occurs due to revive supposedly killing every single type of undead besides this one - justification would require either good lore, a handwave, or just not caring.

Thematic: With the specified clause, Holy Light kills Revenant because it's 'normal' effect is to heal, maintaining revive kills zombie.
Mechanic: Conflict does occur due to Holy Light triggering damage on all undead. However Zanz has shown it is possible to program specific interactions between two cards such as SoSa + Miracle (another less specific interaction is SoW + Immaterial Creature, which goes against the old design paradox of "targeting the untargetable"). A specific interaction for Holy Light + Revenant seems possible.
 
At the time of it's creation people generally agreed that revive should logically kill zombie (aka maintain thematic override). This opinion probably has changed given the recent posts.

In this case I prefer the thematic override rather than the mechanic override to keep the current interactions of the secondary card (Holy Light) consistent with the theme of the other undead being 'purged'.

I've added a poll and would like to hear additional thoughts.

(Side Note : This IMHO is a possible reason most cards should not be given Elemental Hate effects (aka "Bad effect happens if Element X is targeted."). Cards such as Holy Light complicate design when Element-specific effects come into play.)