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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: moomoose on May 28, 2011, 11:16:04 pm

Title: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 28, 2011, 11:16:04 pm
(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/63/primd.png)
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6911/primu.png)
NAME:
Primal Quantum
ELEMENT:
Entropy
COST:
1 :entropy
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
:entropy : Differentiate
Generate a random pillar or pendulum
NAME:
Primal Quantum
ELEMENT:
Entropy
COST:
1 :entropy
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
TEXT:
:entropy : Graft
Add a pillar or pendulum to a random existing stack
ART:
elements the game modified by moomoose
IDEA:
moomoose
NOTES:
for the quantum generators competition

The idea is that this primal quantum goo will form into distinct element quantum producers, vaguely similar to how stem cells work (very vaguely).  The unupgraded can aid in rainbows while the upgraded is more focused and will add to existing stacks.  The unupgraded will only produce unupgraded pillars and pendulums, while the upgraded will make whichever it is grafting on to, pillar, tower, upgraded or unupgraded pendulums.  This will be an aid to trio or quarto decks as well as monos and duos.
SERIES:

Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Rutarete on May 28, 2011, 11:17:26 pm
just 1 :entropy for pillar mitosis? Definitely needs a cost increase.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 28, 2011, 11:20:54 pm
well how much would you pay for a pillar?  if its 2 or higher it seems rather inefficient.  basically its turn 1) play pillars; turn 2) play primal quantum; turn 3) start making pillars with PQ; - as is, it will be 1 turn after that that each pillar essential negates its net cost of being made by PQ, with a cost increase it would be additional turns to see a net benefit.  So what would be a good cost?
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Nepycros on May 28, 2011, 11:49:17 pm
SNova/Nymph's Tears decks, Jump for joy!
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: tyranim on May 29, 2011, 12:01:12 am
were it not for water nymph, this card would be fine. but water nymph says "hi pillar, bye pillar, hi new nymph" multiple times per turn. its like steroids for nymphomania, of that fg that uses nymphs tears.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Nepycros on May 29, 2011, 12:07:10 am
were it not for water nymph, this card would be fine. but water nymph says "hi pillar, bye pillar, hi new nymph" multiple times per turn. its like steroids for nymphomania, of that fg that uses nymphs tears.
Ya mean Jezebel? Well, she'd have to start swapping her Quantum Pillars for Entropy Pillars, but otherwise, it's pretty solid.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 29, 2011, 12:19:48 am
were it not for water nymph, this card would be fine. but water nymph says "hi pillar, bye pillar, hi new nymph" multiple times per turn. its like steroids for nymphomania, of that fg that uses nymphs tears.
i didnt realize water nymphs could use their ability more than once per turn?
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Saynt on May 29, 2011, 12:20:02 am
The cost should be higher. Even if pillars cost nothing, there is limited deck space and draw rate. 1  :entropy for an endless supply of pillars each turn of the same element as an existing cluster just doesn't seem right...
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 29, 2011, 12:22:47 am
The cost should be higher. Even if pillars cost nothing, there is limited deck space and draw rate. 1  :entropy for an endless supply of pillars each turn of the same element as an existing cluster just doesn't seem right...
that's a bit of an oversimplification.  its not just 1 :entropy, its 1 :entropy + 1 :entropy x number of pillars generated.  you have to think to yourself "how much would i *pay* to put a pillar in play?" i personally would not pay 1 :entropy + 2 :entropy per pillar
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: coinich on May 29, 2011, 12:30:45 am
Unupped's text says permanent, not pillar.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 29, 2011, 12:31:30 am
danke
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 29, 2011, 02:02:07 am
could revamp the idea to instead produce quantum (not pillars/towers) for the lowest non-zero quanta in your possession- ie if you have 1 :earth 3 :entropy and 3 :life, 0 for the rest, it will produce 1 :earth (this idea would also remove the cost associated with the card and make it 'other')
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: coinich on May 29, 2011, 02:13:09 am
I much prefer the current idea instead.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Smurrf on May 29, 2011, 03:08:22 am
Agreed, keep current idea.  I'd suggest making it free to deploy but make it 2 :entropy to generate.  For a card that can generate a pillar every turn, it's a fair price to pay for saving some card space.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Essence on May 29, 2011, 03:22:04 am
The other idea is kind of already found in Harmonic Pillar/Tower, IIRC.  This is good, though.  Also, staggeringly good art. :)
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 30, 2011, 01:52:52 pm
still looking at revamp options as i am really not a fan of paying 2x quanta per pillar.

how about it generating quanta for each card in your hand based on their elements?  so if you have four cards, one from life, two from time and one from aether, it will produce :time :life :aether or if you had five cards, three life and two aether it will produce :life :aether .
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Manipul8r on May 30, 2011, 03:17:25 pm
Agreed, keep current idea.  I'd suggest making it free to deploy but make it 2 :entropy to generate.  For a card that can generate a pillar every turn, it's a fair price to pay for saving some card space.
just 1 :entropy for pillar mitosis? Definitely needs a cost increase.
If you put mitosis on a RoL, it's free to activate.  I think the cast cost of this card may need to be 2 :entropy but I would not change the activation cost and I like the ability as it is.  I would like to see OldTrees' thoughts on balancing this card, if it doesn't conflict with this being an entry in the QG competition.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: The_Mormegil on May 30, 2011, 03:27:59 pm
The upped version is too powerful. Starting from turn 3 it goes even, turn 4 on it gains esponentially. The unupped might be intresting.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Newbiecake on May 30, 2011, 04:06:56 pm
The upped version is too powerful. Starting from turn 3 it goes even, turn 4 on it gains esponentially. The unupped might be intresting.
But then you will either need an Entropy Mark or a bunch of Amethyst Pillars to utilize this card to its fullest extent. Generating Pillars for other elements other than Entropy is fine, as you will need to draw this AND a pillar of the element your deck is based off of, but if one is running a mono Entropy then this card is OP.

I suggest the revamp to be: ":entropy [insert ability name]: Generate three random pillars not matching your mark."
I took out the pendulums because I think this card is meant to be a new way to run rainbows, not duos. This random pillar generation is nowhere near OP because you only have so many permanent slots to be filled up with pillars.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: The_Mormegil on May 30, 2011, 04:16:13 pm
The upped version is too powerful. Starting from turn 3 it goes even, turn 4 on it gains esponentially. The unupped might be intresting.
But then you will either need an Entropy Mark or a bunch of Amethyst Pillars to utilize this card to its fullest extent. Generating Pillars for other elements other than Entropy is fine, as you will need to draw this AND a pillar of the element your deck is based off of, but if one is running a mono Entropy then this card is OP.
The problem with that card is that, if you play them off of mark, it generates a lot of quanta over time. It's n*(n+1)/2 quanta, where n is the number of turns. It's a LOT of quanta. Think bolt stall... It might be even worth of a whole FG deck if it comes out! It's strong and fast. I like the idea, but it needs to cost a lot more.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: Pineapple on May 30, 2011, 04:42:14 pm
BTW, if you do get to remaking the card, make sure to delete the extra line that caused the text to shift up into an awkward spacing.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: OldTrees on May 30, 2011, 04:54:18 pm
I would like to see OldTrees' thoughts on balancing this card, if it doesn't conflict with this being an entry in the QG competition.
I do not have time to balance all of the submissions therefore I do not have time to balance any.
However I do have time to comment on design.

Pillar Mitosis is a good idea. (I would have excepted a more expensive non random one in Life but this seems better.)
When balance is in doubt use math.
T1: 1 Primal Quantum (less random hence easier calculations) + 1 Entropy Tower
Eot1:  :entropy [-3 vs 2 towers]
T2:  :entropy: Graft a random Entropy Tower
Eot2:  :entropy :entropy :entropy [-3 vs 2 towers]
Eot3:  :entropy :entropy :entropy :entropy :entropy :entropy [-2 vs 2 towers]
Eot4: 10 :entropy [+0 vs 2 towers]
Eot5: 15 :entropy [+3 vs 2 towers]
Eot6: 21 :entropy [+7 vs 2 towers]
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on May 30, 2011, 05:46:17 pm
hmm wow, after 6 turns the game could be almost over if there is a rush deck involved, and the difference between using this card on 1 tower and using 2 towers is only 7 :entropy , that doesnt seem OP, especially considering the early investment slows down your own attack

if anything this now seems underpowered after looking at the math
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: EmeraldTiger on May 30, 2011, 06:07:52 pm
Imagine combining this with my idea.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: tyranim on May 30, 2011, 09:05:04 pm
were it not for water nymph, this card would be fine. but water nymph says "hi pillar, bye pillar, hi new nymph" multiple times per turn. its like steroids for nymphomania, of that fg that uses nymphs tears.
i didnt realize water nymphs could use their ability more than once per turn?
they cant, but if you have a bunch out already, youll be getting malignant nymphs
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: salox on May 06, 2012, 08:58:23 pm
increase card's cost, not ability cost
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on September 15, 2012, 01:00:47 pm
hmm this was a long ride, i may start over and try something similar.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: OldTrees on September 15, 2012, 04:23:13 pm
hmm this was a long ride, i may start over and try something similar.
That would be wise. There was definitely something in here of great quality. I am unsure why it ended up archived.
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on September 16, 2012, 01:06:04 pm
so am trying to figure out which aspects to keep and which to do away with. 
the initial card cost itself i think could go, and have the ability cost be :entropy :entropy for the basic and :entrop for the upped
the random pillar generation was all that was seen in the polls, and it was the far less appealing ability, so may just have the upped ability for both cards

or should i scrap what is there and just work on another pillar/pend generating mechanic
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: moomoose on October 16, 2012, 04:55:51 pm
ive thought about it, and i think it could work well as a 1 cost eternal spell- or as a one use spell card that could turn a pillar/pend/tower in hand into an eternal card, but increase it's cost to play by 1. 
Title: Re: Primal Quantum | Primal Quantum
Post by: OldTrees on October 16, 2012, 04:59:07 pm
I think you are right.
The one shot spell sounds like the better of the two.
blarg: