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Offline jmdt

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg74345#msg74345
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2010, 02:54:45 am »
I really like this card and hope some version get implemented to the game; air could use a few more tricks in its arsenal and its an interesting concept.  Its essentially a paper tiger with momentum (ignores all shields but 2, those reflect).  Kinda like winds version of a sapphire charger with a twist of spell damage.

When I look at this thing, I see it as essentially a 6/1 creature (if you have 6 out, which will probably only happen with fractal) with momentun upped for 4 quanta and a 1/1 creature with momentum unupped for 2.  Since this is closest to a charger in function,  I'll compare it to a charger for balances sake.

Upped:
Elite charger:       7/5, 5 cost, momentum,     damage per quanta: 1.4, damage with ~30 quanta and fractal: 42
Wreched swarm: 6/1, 4 cost, spell damage,  damage per quanta: 1.5, damage with ~30 quanta and fractal: 42

Using fractal, the damage difference between the wreched swarm and elite charger seems quite minimal.  There is only 0.1 difference in damage per quanta in the swarm's favor.  Obviously 8 chargers out damege 8 swarm, so for comparison, I assume there is 30 quanta or the needed type when casting fractal.  Here one could place 6 charger or 7 swarm in one turn.  Both situations result in 42 damage that ignores shields.  So for balance purposes, the wreched swarms damage potential comes in about the same as the fractal charger.

Now looking at defence, there is a quite huge disparity.  The charger can survive any current damage spell except thunderbolt with its 5 hp and is immune to the ill effects of all the shields.  The wretched swarm, however dies to every damage spell in game.  RoF, thunderstorm and unstable gas can wipe them all out in one shot.  Simply the charger has high survivability and the swarm does not.

The swarm also has three more things going negatively for it.  First, while it generally ignores shields, jade and mirror shield act like antimatter to this card and cause it to heal the opponent.  Secondly,  all the data I used assumes there are 6 or more in play.  In a non fractal deck, this card will likely do 1-3 damage in most games as rarely will all six be in play at the same time.   Thirdly, since it is a 0/1 creature naturally and the damage is an effect, lobotomizer will not be kind to this card

In summary, compared to other cards in this game, I feel that this card is actually underpowered.  I realize the N attack was the point of the card, but in normal decks it will be too weak and in fractal decks will become too strong(hence the cap).  6 seems like a good attack for this card; I suggest the attack becomes a permanent 6 attack if the cost remains 4 so this card is useful outside a fractal deck.  Even at 6 spell damage for 4 cost with 1 hp I feel it is still underpowered and a weaker alternative to the charger due to its 1 hp.  Due to its weaknesses and frailty, 7 damage and 4 cost may even be balanced, but probably not.

Unupped:
There is not an easy comparison for the unupped swarm, but again, 1/1 for 2 cost with spell damage seems a bit weak, and will probably never be used.  Let me compare to other 2 cost creatures: The mind flayer is 2/2 with lobotomize for 2, fire spirit is 0/2 with growth for 2, horned frog is 3/3 for 2, antlion is 2/3 with burrow for 1, graviton fire eater is 0/5 with ablaze for 1, lycanthrope is 1/1 with lycanthropy for 2, devourer is 0/2 with absorb and burrow for 1, and scarab is 2/N with devour for 1.  the onerous swarm is weaker than each of these.

I propose it that 2/1 for 2 quanta wil spell damage would fall more in line with what current 2 cost cards can do.  3/1 may also be balanced since its damage again can be lobotomized off.

Offline Avenger

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg74397#msg74397
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 07:54:00 am »
I think you got it wrong, the shields won't be like 'antimatter', they won't make the swarm 'heal' the opponent.
They may cause the spell damage reflected to the owner.
Also, it doesn't need to be all new cards are stronger than the previous generation.
The whole game balance is preserved more by adding cards that are close to average.
The charger is a very strong card, and this one is just slightly worse. Considering it is a smaller package, it is still very
useful when you have limited quanta (as in an aether duo) and you want to fractal.

Ant-n-ero

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg74557#msg74557
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 03:03:33 pm »
as avenger said - we arent always looking for THE best card - but a fun card that you can use in any deck...

the idea is it has pros and cons - yes in a fractal deck it would be awesome - that is about the only time - and not every decks works 100% the time, there are always flaws - if it is UP then hoorah - it's agood card that you can use if you want and not an unfun one that will never be made into a card....

SunnyGreens

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg74866#msg74866
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 11:08:05 pm »
Well, what if I modified the two cards to this?

Kael Hate

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg74991#msg74991
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2010, 02:24:28 am »
Well, what if I modified the two cards to this?
I think it changes the reason people voted to get the card here.

SunnyGreens

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg75007#msg75007
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 02:47:41 am »
Very well, no more change from my end. Time for new cards then.

bojengles77

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg78296#msg78296
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2010, 08:58:28 pm »
question: is the attack 0/1 or N/1. Point being, if it is 0/1 then does the damage dealt act as a spell effect and is the damage subject to antimatter?

SunnyGreens

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg78361#msg78361
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2010, 10:56:34 pm »
The stats are 0/1 as the card displays. Damage is dealt as spell damage, not physical. Antimatter would be useless here.

bojengles77

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg78373#msg78373
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2010, 11:28:24 pm »
hmmm that adds an interesting and frustrating element to the card. I guess you need to throw down a reflective shield ><

Offline Glitch

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg82893#msg82893
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2010, 04:48:13 pm »
Just so you guys know, Onerous means "burdensome". 

1 : involving, imposing, or constituting a burden : troublesome <an onerous task>
2 : having legal obligations that outweigh the advantages <an onerous contract>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/onerous

Replace the name of the first card with "burdensome swarm" and I think you'll find it no longer makes sense.  Please rename.

SunnyGreens

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg82914#msg82914
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2010, 05:18:11 pm »
I'm not sure I follow. Why can't it be a burden? I named the cards based on the effect I figured a swarm of bugs would have on a person in the real world. The first two things that came to mind were: They would make whatever work I was doing a real pain as they pestered me, and if things got worse I'd feel quite wretched. So, I whipped out a thesaurus and decided that "Onerous" had a good ring to it, and ended up keeping "Wretched" as is.

If you don't like the choice, please offer alternatives instead of just blasting it.

finkel

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Re: Onerous Swarm | Wretched Swarm https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=6433.msg82925#msg82925
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2010, 05:28:27 pm »
I like the sound of on-uh-res
sounds like....ominous ^_^

 

anything
blarg: