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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238058#msg238058
« on: January 01, 2011, 06:37:00 pm »
Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra
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NAME: Hieroglyph
ELEMENT: Time
COST: 4 :time
TYPE: Permanent
ATK|HP: -
ABILITY: :time :time : Unveiled Secrets
Destroy the top card of target player's deck.
NAME: Eye of Ra
ELEMENT: Time
COST: 3 :time
TYPE: Permanent
ATK|HP: -
ABILITY: :time :time : Unveiled Secrets
Destroy the top card of target player's deck.
ART: Original Art by The Mormegil
IDEA: Dramore (see the original thread here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10333))
NOTES: Nothing worth noting - the permanent isn't any different from an Hourglass except in its ability.
SERIES: None

The original idea was definitely more complex, had other purposes, created different scenarios et cetera. This could seem like a completely different idea altogether. But it's not: the purpose of the competition as I saw it was to review our old ideas (as a community if not as individuals), salvaging what we could and resurrecting intresting concepts and unexplored mechanics. When I first saw the Time Rune, I noticed it had an ability - Flash Forward - that would actually be a good concept if made on a standalone card. I got rid of the Rune Series theme, of the possibility to target both creatures and permanents, of the Deja Vu effect, I got rid even of the "time bubble" effect (see later in the development notes why). I decided that I would resurrect the idea of Flash Forward, the idea of a card that destroys a player's deck instead of things in play.
I kept, however, the general runic flavor of the card - renaming it to Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra seems appropriate as a "Time Rune", as the relationship between Time and ancient Egypt is strong already. I also changed the name of the ability to "Unveiled Secrets", because while a generic Time Rune can certainly flash you into the future, a Hieroglyph probably cannot. These are, however, minor details.

The ability is both new and already in the game, in that it manipulates the top card of a deck. We already have Mindgate and Rewind that deal with the top card of a target's deck; the ability to destroy it directly is new, though.
Let's analyze what this brings to the game.

First of all, some people wouldn't like this because it completely destroys a card, meaning you can't even have a chance to play it. This is, in a way, like discarding from your hand - which is disliked in Elements.
Some will also claim that the card is OP. Since having 0 cards in your deck means you have lost, thinking about an Aether Stall with 6 of these out is... scary. But I will prove this point wrong later.
Perhaps the most important change, in fact, would be the introduction of a new strategy - deckout. This was already a strategy, although it wasn't really used that much for various reasons; this card, though, brings that strategy to a new level altogether. A side note on this fact would be that the Eternity trick wouldn't work against one of these.

Regarding the balancing issues: we can compare the loss of a card in a deck to the loss of hp, in a way. They are both ways to win a duel. Hps are (as a standard) 100, while cards may vary between 30 and 60. A creature has a cost equal to its attack (mostly true), so it's correct to assume that - by this point of view - 1 quanta is worth 1/100 of a match. This means that "burning" one card out of 30-60 should cost about 2-3 more times than a single damage.
Nonetheless, I chose to make this a permanent with an initial cost (that may be subject to reviews... I kept the original cost, lacking a comparison, but this should be tested) and an ability cost. This is because the deckout strategy has additional advantages on the direct damage.
The first is, you actually burn a card. That's enough of an advantage to justify the choice of a recurring cost. The second is, you can't really stop it. Shields, healing... nothing except PC will save you from this threat.
I think the disadvantage of being WAY slower (you're limited to 6 cards, and each destroys ONE card from the opponent's deck) keeps the two strategies balanced, and would actually make for a deeper gameplay.
And I think the cost I chose for the ability is balanced - 2 quanta for a card is double to triple the cost of a damage.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238085#msg238085
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2011, 07:00:46 pm »
Good analysis.

However 1 quanta is not equated to 1 damage but rather to 1 attack (aka 1 damage per turn)
Also card destruction reduces both the opponent's deck and their ability and time to counterattack.

I think that a more expensive Activation Cost is needed to account for the defensive power of this card.

Also it is not much slower if you ignore other defensive cards

I am going to play test this deck V and see what the average Turns To Win is vs AI 3.
6x Time Tower
6x Time Pendulum
6x Eye of Ra
6x Hourglass
6x Precognition
GameTurn of Victory/DefeatCards DiscardedTurns Eyes were played
19232,3,4,7
210251,5,6,8,8,10
310253,3,6,7,8
49(out rushed by Crimson Dragon)161,3,7,7,9
59(out rushed by Crimson Dragon)124,4,7
Number of defeats:2/5
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238170#msg238170
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2011, 08:58:41 pm »
I actually thought about a cost of 3 :time for the ability (it was my first idea) but I thought it was too UP. But... I just realized that to burn through a 60 cards deck you would need about 120 quanta - the same as spamming 6 Fire Bolts to the face and killing the opponent. Probably more fragile as a strategy, but kills opponents' reactions while doing it and also is way faster against 30 cards decks...

Maybe it should even be 4 :time...?
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238176#msg238176
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2011, 09:08:41 pm »
Card destruction has been considered an OP mechanic by definition, and if this is a permanent with a reusable skill, it's going to be able to shrink an opponent's deck by half, killing all kind of crucial cards in the process.  It gets even more messy when pitted against a rainbow deck, that has quite a number of cards with only 1-2 copies that if lost would break the strategy.

I can see this being balance-able if it were a SPELL, since you could have a maximum of 6 uses, but not on a stick.

Offline Nepycros

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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238179#msg238179
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2011, 09:17:47 pm »
This + Mindgate = "Sorry, you don't get to use that card, but just to make you feel better, I'll use it for you!"
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

Why, yes. I do have a Mindgate necklace. It's how I ninja everyone.

Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238183#msg238183
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2011, 09:22:47 pm »
That combo even gets Anubis in the bargain.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238206#msg238206
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 09:53:16 pm »
Although card destruction has been considered OP by definition, popular opinion does not make it so.

From my playtesting I think that while this card seems too cheap, a more expensive version would be beneficial to the mono vs rainbow balance and the rush vs stall balance.
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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238266#msg238266
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2011, 11:04:59 pm »
I agree with Howitzer. Should be a spell.

Also, you said there was no counter to this. There is a counter, but it's costly.. Malignant Cell + Eternity. A limitless supply of creatures to Reverse Time only to keep your cards flowing naturally. And that only counters one of these Hieroglyphs.

You see how often Hourglasses are used, and they have the same unupgraded stats as this card. And remember, since this is of the :time element, then it can even be used in unison WITH said Hourglasses. And think of the possibilities if you used 6 of each, as well as an Eternity and a Photon or Spark to recycle. A deck made of pure Time Factories, Eternity, Golden Hourglasses, Hieroglyphs, and a Photon would tear a deck to shreds without giving it a chance.

Now if we were to introduce some sort of revival ability, this could be countered more efficiently. Alas, there is none, so this remains overpowered, at least in my eyes.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238272#msg238272
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2011, 11:12:32 pm »
Please test the card before you declare it terribly OP.
Denial always gets negative gut reactions but Posidon is not OP.
Uncounterable (which this is not) gets negative gut reactions but Qunited Chargers are not OP.

I playtested this card and I approve of this card despite being slightly to cheap IMO.
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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238278#msg238278
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2011, 11:23:16 pm »
Please test the card before you declare it terribly OP.
Denial always gets negative gut reactions but Posidon is not OP.
Uncounterable (which this is not) gets negative gut reactions but Qunited Chargers are not OP.

I playtested this card and I approve of this card despite being slightly to cheap IMO.
Actually, Poseidon is OP in my eyes as well. That's what makes it my favorite weapon. (;

But I'm curious. How do you test a card like this if it isn't in dev..?

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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238281#msg238281
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2011, 11:30:22 pm »
I used the deck in the trainer but replaced the Eyes for unupgraded shards.
Unupped shards drain 1 quanta per click but remain in the hand. Thus you can click one 3 time to represent casting the Eye and 2x per usage of the skill.
Keep track of the number of cards destroyed and you win if the opponents deck drops below your cards destroyed count (at which point exit, check details for turn count and start again)

Last I checked the AI bases its PC on the cost of the permanent so It will always target the Upgraded Hourglasses before the Eyes thus the lack of a real permanent will not affect the results very much.
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Re: Hieroglyph | Eye of Ra https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18678.msg238292#msg238292
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2011, 11:55:32 pm »
CURATOR COMMENT
-Fix the discrepancies between the TEXT in the table and the card; it should read: "Destroy the top card of target player's deck." instead of, "The first card of target players' deck is destroyed.", as the latter statement doesn't match your image.

Very nice analysis; I could probably use this in combination with Mind Gate on a much more strategic level... :)

 

blarg: