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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: coinich on April 30, 2011, 01:18:20 am

Title: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: coinich on April 30, 2011, 01:18:20 am
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd377/coinich/Halberd-2.png)
(http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd377/coinich/Bardiche-2.png)
NAME:
Halberd
ELEMENT:
Other
COST:
4
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
6|4
TEXT:
Weapon: Deal 6 damage at the end of every turn
You cannot equip shields
NAME:
Bardiche
ELEMENT:
Other
COST:
4
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:
9|4
TEXT:
Weapon: Deal 9 damage at the end of every turn
You cannot equip shields
ART:
Zblader
IDEA:
coinich
NOTES:
Playing a shield will discard this card.  Playing this card will discard your shield.  Probably the simplest card I've made so far. :p
Flying stats would be 6|4 and 9|4 for the unupgraded and upgraded respectively.
SERIES:


Title: Re: Halberd / Bardiche
Post by: Spiraler on April 30, 2011, 01:28:11 am
nice, but it would be following the classic rule of weapon cost power stuff. This would apply even more if you can't play a shield. I would say to make the cost only 6 for unupped, 5 for upped.
Title: Re: Halberd / Bardiche
Post by: coinich on April 30, 2011, 01:32:53 am
nice, but it would be following the classic rule of weapon cost power stuff. This would apply even more if you can't play a shield. I would say to make the cost only 6 for unupped, 5 for upped.
Weapon cost power stuff?  whuzzat?  Also note its other, meaning Novas and SNovas can cast it very easily, but monos can handle it too.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: Rutarete on April 30, 2011, 01:50:44 am
2 handed weapon, so no shield. Looks good.
Now, for curator preparation. (kind of)
I believe the Flying stats go in the atk/hp tab.
and in the notes, you said discard. My initial implication was that it's in the hand, when it's on the field. But then i remembered you do use discard like this.
For the card image, i think the curator will want to know who "me!" is, so you should probably put Coinich
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on April 30, 2011, 03:20:36 am
Weapons should try to cost the same upgraded and unpped.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: DrOctaganapus2 on April 30, 2011, 03:23:33 am
I like it!!! Also, I have a few cards I wanna post but cant due to some things, so here are the names of cards I would have posted

Ninja
Dementia
Shark
Centurion Wall
Fissure

and some others
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: Rutarete on April 30, 2011, 04:34:21 pm
Oh, card change. This + (mutation with) Endow = Ownage!
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on April 30, 2011, 04:51:08 pm
This should cost 10 :rainbow maximum.
It probably should cost less.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on April 30, 2011, 06:48:06 pm
Upgraded says Halberd when it should be Bardiche. I agree with a slightly lower cost as well, and I really like the idea of a two-handed weapon - especially with Crusaders.

(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd179165/Halberd3.png)
Background modified from http://www.sxc.hu/photo/1343267
EDIT:
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd179212/Bardiche3.png)
Background is from the same source as the unupped.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: Nepycros on April 30, 2011, 06:53:42 pm
Balancing time.

Comparing to Dagger and Short Bow.

Dagger: 2 (attack) + 1 (booster ability) - 3 (permanent slot) = 0
Short Bow: 3 (attack) + 1 (booster ability) - 3 (permanent) + 1 (ranged) = 2

This: 9 (attack) - either 2 or 3 (negative ability) - 3 (permanent slot) = 4 or 5, adding, say, 2 because it's in Other.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on April 30, 2011, 07:18:37 pm
very nice mechanic, id like to contribute to a series of two handed weapons and/or defensive weapons and/or offensive sheilds or smething, new stuff for weapon and shield.


this in particular is a bit Underpowered for the cost, maybe 8 Other? At this cost, it should stop weapon attacks too, you know since its a pole arm, makes up for the shield, titan would still penetrate.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on April 30, 2011, 07:25:14 pm
Balancing time.

Comparing to Dagger and Short Bow.

Dagger: 2 (attack) + 1 (booster ability) - 3 (permanent slot) = 0
Short Bow: 3 (attack) + 1 (booster ability) - 3 (permanent) + 1 (ranged) = 2

This: 9 (attack) - either 2 or 3 (negative ability) - 3 (permanent slot) = 4 or 5, adding, say, 2 because it's in Other.
I would definitely suggest it be higher than 2 so that it does not greatly eclipse Hammer
(I would also contest Ranged counting as +1 since airborne does not and web is situational)
Short Sword: 3 (attack) -3 (Weapon) = 0 elemental = 1 other = 1 :rainbow
Hammer: 4 (attack) - 3 (Weapon) = 1 elemental = 2.5 other = 2 :rainbow
[Equation used: 1+1.5E=O]
Halberd: 9 (attack) -3 (Weapon) -C (2 handed) = 6-C elemental = 10-1.5C other = 8.5 :rainbow of C=1

Personally I think that Short Sword [3], Hammer [4] --> Halberd [9] is a huge exaggeration. Short Sword [3], Hammer [4] --> Halberd [6] would fit my experience from D&D and other RPGs much better.

Halberd [6|9] would cost
Halberd: 6 (attack) -3 (Weapon) -C (2 handed) = 3-C elemental = 5.5-1.5C other = 4 :rainbow of C=1
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: coinich on April 30, 2011, 09:29:58 pm
So you're saying it should be an attack of 6 and a cost of 4 other with the upgrade being 9 and a cost of 4 as well?
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on April 30, 2011, 09:31:55 pm
So you're saying it should be an attack of 6 and a cost of 4 other with the upgrade being 9 and a cost of 4 as well?
If I interpret the equation correctly, he's saying that version will work with a cost of 3 Other, which I feel makes sense.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: coinich on April 30, 2011, 09:42:39 pm
So you're saying it should be an attack of 6 and a cost of 4 other with the upgrade being 9 and a cost of 4 as well?
If I interpret the equation correctly, he's saying that version will work with a cost of 3 Other, which I feel makes sense.
There was a lot of OldTreeseese in there, but I did appreciate the input.  Right now I have it as 4, but thats ok.  I rounded up instead.

very nice mechanic, id like to contribute to a series of two handed weapons and/or defensive weapons and/or offensive sheilds or smething, new stuff for weapon and shield.


this in particular is a bit Underpowered for the cost, maybe 8 Other? At this cost, it should stop weapon attacks too, you know since its a pole arm, makes up for the shield, titan would still penetrate.
I call dibs on double handed shields, but feel free to do double weapons if you really want.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on April 30, 2011, 09:59:02 pm
So you're saying it should be an attack of 6 and a cost of 4 other with the upgrade being 9 and a cost of 4 as well?
Yes. (I forgot to add a +1 mid way through the equation)
So attack of 6 should cost 4.0 :rainbow (assuming C=1), rounded that is 4 :rainbow.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 05:12:33 am
I'm looking at the costs now and damage output.
At least the average turns to wait to play this card (just as a gut feeling), would be far less now: a vast improvement.

My only additional thoughts are "Crusader has a new friend".

This would become a nice "transition" card from trying to upgrade decks from unupped to upped. an unupped Halberd with a few upped towers could go along way.

While I was typing this: I had the idea of a quick immolation deck would make this a one shot deal.

Immolate --> then play this and fly it, repeat until you're doing damage like a pro.
Test it with Gavel. 78 damage is the test value for >100 with Bardiche (just remember not to spend 2 :rainbow per Gavel)
Or Test to 67 damage if you use a non Earth/Fire mark like with Supernova.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 05:25:33 am
Thank you OldTrees, as usual I was just thinking of it in my head without writing down actual numbers (pretty awesome you have that info saved somewhere).

A variety of weapons always makes me happy.

Any thoughts on "adding some +1 if you have "this or that mark?"" It seems the "other" weapons has that property.
I would not suggest making this a marked card. Mostly because I do not see the point for having them only used by that mark.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: The_Mormegil on May 01, 2011, 05:41:09 am
Approximatively, a Crusader + Animate Halberd rush would be a little bit slower than a full blown immorush. The speed with which crusaders with 12 attack would come out is quite impressive, though. A 4 turn win is not half unlikely. You just need to play 3 Halberds / Endowed Crusaders within the first two turns and one more a bit later, and that's not unlikely with novas and upped animates / light towers.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: The_Mormegil on May 01, 2011, 07:31:45 am
ahh, The_Mormegil.

I think its nice to see Crusader with such a massive gain in atk.

as terms of "speed" I think I meant that for immo/flying/halberd. Two separate combos.


I don't see this as breaking to "the next" rush category, but I feel it's a nice addition to the game + the game mechanic overall.

Those were two examples of "what I'd do with it".
Yeah, I wasn't referring to your post. I just commented on a general "light tower / nova / crusader / bardiche / animate weapon / enjoy!" deck. It can be quite a rush...
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 02:31:03 pm
it should cost more than 4, and it should be faster to use blessing to mass upgrade a crusader, really.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 02:38:09 pm
it should cost more than 4, and it should be faster to use blessing to mass upgrade a crusader, really.
Please provide evidence.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 02:45:32 pm
because its overpowered at 4 Other, costing less than most weapons and dealing more damage than the most powerful one, giving up the shield doesnt mean much with crusaders and animate weapon.

consider, this is stronger and faster even adding momentum than using titan with crusaders.

its just too strong at this cost, make it at least 6 Other if not 9.

it should be faster cheaper easier to use blessings and titan and such, in looking at the library of cards, this is just too powerful at this cost.



i still think it should grant some protection, you can block and keep attackers away with a polearm, its why they are on poles. probably block the opponents weapon. great card but its too cheap as it is, and it could use more sophistication.

look historically at the halberd, they are not giant axes, you dont 'swing' a halberd, you cut poke and drag it across the opponents body. you block with it and keep swords out of reach. its actually more of a defensive weapon. The power, cost and overall structure of the weapon needs reworked a bit.

i like the card, but feel it could be much better with further revision. id say cost 7-8 and stops equipped weapon attack damage other than titan.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 02:58:29 pm
because its overpowered at 4 Other, costing less than most weapons and dealing more damage than the most powerful one, giving up the shield doesnt mean much with crusaders and animate weapon.

consider, this is stronger and faster even adding momentum than using titan with crusaders.

its just too strong at this cost, make it at least 6 Other if not 9.

it should be faster cheaper easier to use blessings and titan and such, in looking at the library of cards, this is just too powerful at this cost.



i still think it should grant some protection, you can block and keep attackers away with a polearm, its why they are on poles. probably block the opponents weapon. great card but its too cheap as it is, and it could use more sophistication.

look historically at the halberd, they are not giant axes, you dont 'swing' a halberd, you cut poke and drag it across the opponents body. you block with it and keep swords out of reach. its actually more of a defensive weapon. The power, cost and overall structure of the weapon needs reworked a bit.

i like the card, but feel it could be much better with further revision. id say cost 7-8 and stops equipped weapon attack damage other than titan.
You first comment is comparing it to the Elemental weapons. However is it abnormal for the Other Weapons? Longsword is 6 attack for  :rainbow and you are worried about 9 attack for 4 :rainbow. Or do you find Longsword equally problematic? Or something else?

A polearm does offer protection. This card does not. Suggest a different 2 handed weapon like a Greataxe.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 03:03:42 pm
it just seems to really devalue cards like morning star and titan by comparison.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on May 01, 2011, 04:35:27 pm
it just seems to really devalue cards like morning star and titan by comparison.
Far from it:
Morningstar starts off Immaterial.
Titan starts off with Momentum.
This card doesn't start off with either and self-destructs the moment you play a shield.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 04:52:37 pm
ok i get you, i was mistaken on the cost of the other weapons.
its a very powerful weapon, it just seems to be too good of one in a few instances.
maybe im over thinking it.

i still think it should give some defense of some kind. in fact i think most two handed weapons should unless they are purely offensive.


also, in terms of power, this is much closer to a greataxe than a halberd. maybe a pike.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: coinich on May 01, 2011, 04:57:52 pm
i still think it should give some defense of some kind. in fact i think most two handed weapons should unless they are purely offensive.


also, in terms of power, this is much closer to a greataxe than a halberd. maybe a pike.
I'll remember that next time I leave my Diamond Shield at home, kthxbye.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 04:59:47 pm
diamond shield is weak.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on May 01, 2011, 05:02:25 pm
diamond shield is weak.
Unupgraded, it it is the only shield that provides 2 defense.
Upgraded, it is  the only shield that provides 3 defense.

My facepalm powers are tingling. If you think a card is weak please state why, and make a post in the buff thread to make it more powerful.

Also, this. 
v
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: coinich on May 01, 2011, 05:05:18 pm
http://arthropoda.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/facepalm.jpg
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: TuckingFypo on May 01, 2011, 06:14:33 pm
Sorry if this has already been countered.  Other than an immo/animate/endow/something/rush, would this be used? I'd rather have a shield that  saves 10 HP per turn rather than a weapon that deals 2 or 3 more damage on average.  Elemental weapons can be used in duo's or mono's or other flying weapon decks.  I wouldn't vote for a card that would only be used in one type of deck.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 06:19:49 pm
hope.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: johannhowitzer on May 01, 2011, 06:32:53 pm
Rushes don't use shields; many rushes out there will love this.  Especially immolation rushes, since they leave a lot of random quanta on the table.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: Manipul8r on May 01, 2011, 07:17:10 pm
Nice weapon, it's unique and potentially more useful than existing 'Other' weapons.  I'd make the unupgraded do 7 damage at least, since Morning Star already does 7 + is Immaterial, whereas this has a drawback.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 07:53:53 pm
Nice weapon, it's unique and potentially more useful than existing 'Other' weapons.  I'd make the unupgraded do 7 damage at least, since Morning Star already does 7 + is Immaterial, whereas this has a drawback.
This costs less than Morning Star.
4 :rainbow < 5 :light
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: Manipul8r on May 01, 2011, 08:00:41 pm
I know, I just mean I would rather see it cost more and do more so it provides a valuable role rather than just specialization.  There are already weapons in 'Other' and they are cheap.  Currently, I would almost always rather have a cheaper 'Other' weapon without the shield drawback than this.  If it cost 6 :rainbow and did 7 or 8 damage unupgraded it would be more likely to fill a new role.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 01, 2011, 08:17:25 pm
I know, I just mean I would rather see it cost more and do more so it provides a valuable role rather than just specialization.  There are already weapons in 'Other' and they are cheap.  Currently, I would almost always rather have a cheaper 'Other' weapon without the shield drawback than this.  If it cost 6 :rainbow and did 7 or 8 damage unupgraded it would be more likely to fill a new role.
I guess I would disagree and use Halberd (really should be renamed Greataxe or something) as the cheap other weapon in Immolation rush and USEM. It costs more but there is quanta to spare for its use and no room for extra weapons. Maybe a Gavel and a Greataxe for Immo rush and a Longsword and a Greataxe for USEM.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: spiritkirinblade on May 01, 2011, 08:26:25 pm
Im not sure if 4 is too little, but i love this idea of giving rushes more versatility. Also if you flew it and nightmared it, the ai would discard his shield? :D (useless thinking)
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 09:07:37 pm
have it parry weapon attacks or like the first attacker or something equally simple or rename it greataxe. maybe 'Zweihander'
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: coinich on May 01, 2011, 09:25:54 pm
Its not going to parry weapon attacks, so stop bringing it up please.  I suppose renaming Halberd to Greataxe wouldn't be too different however.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on May 01, 2011, 09:32:12 pm
Its not going to parry weapon attacks, so stop bringing it up please.  I suppose renaming Halberd to Greataxe wouldn't be too different however.
I actually like Halberd as a name, just saying.  8)
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 01, 2011, 10:06:30 pm
Its not going to parry weapon attacks, so stop bringing it up please.  I suppose renaming Halberd to Greataxe wouldn't be too different however.
ok sure, dont mean to bug you.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 03, 2011, 05:27:54 pm
Its not going to parry weapon attacks, so stop bringing it up please.  I suppose renaming Halberd to Greataxe wouldn't be too different however.
Halberd -> to Bardiche are good names.

I'm against having the name changed to "great axe".
I admit I would drastically prefer a pair of weapon names as cultured as Halberd|Bardiche but also more aggresive of a wepaon like Greataxe. I would have suggested Maul but we already have a Gavel and the image is of an axe.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: Manipul8r on May 03, 2011, 05:45:00 pm
How about Daisho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisho)?
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 03, 2011, 06:52:02 pm
How about Daisho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisho)?
No. Daisho means a pair of blades. The longer one is called a Daito usually it was a Katana.
Since this is one weapon, I do not think a pair of blades is an accurate name.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: Manipul8r on May 03, 2011, 06:59:49 pm
Well, I was just thinking it should be a weapon that is incompatible with a shield, and I figured the artwork could be redone so that it fits.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on May 03, 2011, 08:05:08 pm
Well, I was just thinking it should be a weapon that is incompatible with a shield, and I figured the artwork could be redone so that it fits.
No offense meant, but it takes me a good bit of time to do these images. Also, if I was dual wielding, I could theorectically drop one of the weapons to pick up a shield.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: The_Mormegil on May 03, 2011, 08:06:51 pm
That could make for another card, though. Daisho: deals 7 damages, or 4 damages if you're using a shield.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 03, 2011, 08:39:54 pm
How about Daisho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisho)?
No. Daisho means a pair of blades. The longer one is called a Daito usually it was a Katana.
Since this is one weapon, I do not think a pair of blades is an accurate name.
do you know the reason two swords were carried?
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: OldTrees on May 03, 2011, 09:31:02 pm
How about Daisho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisho)?
No. Daisho means a pair of blades. The longer one is called a Daito usually it was a Katana.
Since this is one weapon, I do not think a pair of blades is an accurate name.
do you know the reason two swords were carried?
no, I do not know.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: storyteller on May 03, 2011, 09:54:59 pm
the longer sword, usually the katana was for outdoors and open spaces, the shorter wakizashi was for tight quarter or indoors, where a larger sword would get held up or be encumbered. the nodachi was even larger than a katana and was used against horses.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: ZephyrPhantom on May 03, 2011, 10:02:13 pm
the longer sword, usually the katana was for outdoors and open spaces, the shorter wakizashi was for tight quarter or indoors, where a larger sword would get held up or be encumbered. the nodachi was even larger than a katana and was used against horses.
If I was dual wielding, I could theorectically drop one of the weapons to pick up a shield.
Title: Re: Halberd | Bardiche
Post by: TimerClock14 on May 04, 2011, 04:00:31 pm
CURATOR COMMENT:
-Please remove the text from the SERIES section of your table.


I'll move your card anyway, since it's not an essential detail, but please do remember to change it. :)
blarg: