Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game

Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 05:40:19 pm

Title: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 05:40:19 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/wxPHcfz.png)	(http://i.imgur.com/hd6YMa6.png)
NAME: Flatline ELEMENT: Death COST: 4 :death TYPE: Spell ATK|HP: TEXT: No quantum is generated in your opponent's next turn.	NAME: Flatline ELEMENT: Death COST: 3 :death TYPE: Spell ATK|HP: TEXT: No quantum is generated in your opponent's next turn.

ART: none. IDEA: none. NOTES: Is blocked by Sanctuary. SERIES:

Feel free to criticize away!  :D

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Zergva on August 16, 2013, 05:55:03 pm

Quote

Feel free to critisize away!  :D

*criticize

The upped is OP as f---. 3 turn and can be chained. If someone hated the Dim shield spam... And Pest+this is cruel (+Corrodation in the Armory).

My critic is done!

How about making it dual-sided? Reduce the cost for 3|6 and the unupped negated both player, the upped negates only your opponent.

Or the unupped can work as like "No quantum can be generated from pillars|pendulums for 1 turn." So mark and other creatures (Damsenfly| RoL) can apply.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: skyironsword on August 16, 2013, 06:06:33 pm

Drop upped to two turns, make the cost 3|6-7

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 06:10:51 pm

Quote

*criticize

Thank you!  ;D

Okay, I often play fire-decks so I thought the permanent-trait would be more of a disadvantage, but I think you're right!

I personally don't like the idea of a double-sided card.

What do you think about making both cards a spell for the next turn and just making the upped version cheaper? 5/3?

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: skyironsword on August 16, 2013, 06:11:46 pm

Both unupped and upped have to be the same type (creature, permanent, spell)

Well, they don't have to, but there is not a single card that isn't, currently.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 06:18:39 pm

Then maybe it would be actually better to have upped and unupped the same text (next turn) but different cost.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: andretimpa on August 16, 2013, 06:25:50 pm

Actually, the unupped is already borderline OP in my opinion. Making it last more than one turn is plain crazy.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 06:29:31 pm

What about these:

Unupped:

FLATLINE 6 :death
Spell
No quantum is generated in target player's next turn.

Upped:

FLATLINE 4 :death
Spell
No quantum is generated in target player's next turn.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Zergva on August 16, 2013, 06:32:31 pm

Quote from: skyironsword on August 16, 2013, 06:11:46 pm

Both unupped and upped have to be the same type (creature, permanent, spell)

Well, they don't have to, but there is not a single card that isn't, currently.

Breaking the habit, but not now. Not with this card. But if the 3 turn is denied, its don't have to be a perma.

Quote from: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 06:10:51 pm

Quote

*criticize

Thank you!  ;D

Okay, I often play fire-decks so I thought the permanent-trait would be more of a disadvantage, but I think you're right!

I personally don't like the idea of a double-sided card.

What do you think about making both cards a spell for the next turn and just making the upped version cheaper? 5/3?

Compared to other reductions (Black hole, EQ, Pest) it's a bit huge price. So if we can reduce the cost and make some disadvantage (as like let Mark to generate quanta) it's can be more useful (reduced prices let this card to use in Rainbow, easily in a trio/duo and gives it more chance to find a good combo).

Compare it to EQ|Pest. This negated 1-9 quanta for 1 turn ( and let 1 delayed turn to use the source what you've got from the prev. turns). EQ destroys up to 3 (in the 90% of the cases, this is all or 3 pillar, what you can have). But you never can get this quanta from these pillars, so destroying 1 quanta is cost less than 0.33 quanta (in 3 turns). Pest can 'steal' quanta, so devouring for 3 turns cost (less than) 0 quanta. So why does it costs that much? I feel that making the cost to 4|3 will be good at raw(as like Black hole, which does the same against a Rainbow or in the early game, just 1 turn earlier). Comparing to Silence, it'll be the same price, because it's the same, but it's a bit better, (Immolation help, against stalls...) so there will be needed a +1 for that part (Silence is 3|2, so it'll be 4|3 too).

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 06:42:54 pm

Quote from: Zergva on August 16, 2013, 06:32:31 pm

Compared to other reductions (Black hole, EQ, Pest) it's a bit huge price. So if we can reduce the cost and make some disadvantage (as like let Mark to generate quanta) it's can be more useful (reduced prices let this card to use in Rainbow, easily in a trio/duo and gives it more chance to find a good combo).

Compare it to EQ|Pest. This negated 1-9 quanta for 1 turn ( and let 1 delayed turn to use the source what you've got from the prev. turns). EQ destroys up to 3 (in the 90% of the cases, this is all or 3 pillar, what you can have). But you never can get this quanta from these pillars, so destroying 1 quanta is cost less than 0.33 quanta (in 3 turns). Pest can 'steal' quanta, so devouring for 3 turns cost (less than) 0 quanta. So why does it costs that much? I feel that making the cost to 4|3 will be good at raw(as like Black hole, which does the same against a Rainbow or in the early game, just 1 turn earlier). Comparing to Silence, it'll be the same price, because it's the same, but it's a bit better, (Immolation help, against stalls...) so there will be needed a +1 for that part (Silence is 3|2, so it'll be 4|3 too).

You have very good arguments and very good idea but again I don't like that one idea with the active mark, because it wouldn't be a "real" flatline anymore...

andretimpa said the unupped already was too cheap whilst you recommend a 4/3...hmmm.
I have to admit that I did not "dig" into rainbow decks that much.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Chapuz on August 16, 2013, 06:49:00 pm

Make them both upped and unupped last 1 turn (2 or more is EXTREMELY OP) and the upped one cost less than the unupped one. 4|3 seem a good cost.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 06:54:39 pm

Okay, I changed the cards to 4/3.

What do the others think?  :)

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: serprex on August 16, 2013, 07:47:03 pm

It seems a good QC for death. I feel it can cost less, comparing to Silence, EQ. Remember that Blackhole heals the caster

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: skyironsword on August 16, 2013, 08:30:09 pm

Quote from: andretimpa on August 16, 2013, 06:25:50 pm

Actually, the unupped is already borderline OP in my opinion. Making it last more than one turn is plain crazy.

Compare to Silence.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 08:44:09 pm

Do you really think that the cards are still too expensive?

You're not only "halting" your opponent for one turn but actually slowing him for the rest of the game.

I think this is much worse than silence.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: serprex on August 16, 2013, 08:57:18 pm

Honestly, Silence is likely a bit overpriced. Consider Reverse Time costing 1 less while slowing down one's draw and removing a creature from the field. Silence's strength is breaking a chain or blocking things like Miracle, something this doesn't stop directly

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Zergva on August 16, 2013, 08:58:45 pm

Quote from: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 08:44:09 pm

Do you really think that the cards are still too expensive?

You're not only "halting" your opponent for one turn but actually slowing him for the rest of the game.

I think this is much worse than silence.

Actually, I compared it to Silence: The opponent DOES have quanta at the next turn, just not getting more at the End Phase. So, with a good portioning, the opponent have freedom from a limited cost. Silence can do such situations as Miracling at the next turn, force discard. You have the quanta benefit forever, but only if that was beneficial. Pdial use maximal 2 pillars (it plays with more, but it's only needs 2-3 quanta/turn) so denying for 4 is rarely good. Silence stops free cards from play, so can force you to discard. And you are only comparing when opponent DOES NOT have enough quanta to play any card from it's hands. But a good  :life  :death  :air rush sitting on 20-30 quanta at the midgame. Silence can slow it in this phase too, but Flatline not. Btw I said it's better than Silence so it's deserves the 4|3. I'll say again: It's drains 1-10 quanta, and quanta deny is really cheap (under 0.5-0.33  :rainbow ) so the cost is right. Spamming 2-3 of this can be cruel, but the cost changing does not really helps on this situation.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 16, 2013, 09:01:01 pm

What would be your suggestion for the cost, serprex? And skyironsword?

Zergva, I also think 4/3 is best! But, as I said, I'm not actually skilled...^^

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: serprex on August 16, 2013, 09:05:16 pm

4/3 is fine, but I lean towards 3/2. It's a matter of whether you want to round up or down
You're trading a card advantage for a quanta advantage. You lose that quanta advantage if this costs too much, and this becomes a waste of a card. 4 :death means that this doesn't break even until the opponent has 4 pillars out (not 3, since you need to take into account the 1 :underworld card cost)

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Chapuz on August 16, 2013, 10:16:19 pm

You could just say the effect is for your opponent, as it's a 'bad' effect. You would never use it in yourself

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 17, 2013, 06:58:02 am

Updated with new pic, text and 4/3.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: andretimpa on August 17, 2013, 09:43:06 am

Quote from: skyironsword on August 16, 2013, 08:30:09 pm

Quote from: andretimpa on August 16, 2013, 06:25:50 pm

Actually, the unupped is already borderline OP in my opinion. Making it last more than one turn is plain crazy.

Compare to Silence.

The problem is that this bypasses Sanctuary, you are not changing the quanta pool or messing with the hand, but preventing the pillars/pends/mark to work. If we change Sanctuary then it becomes a lot like Silence (a bit weaker, unless combo'd with other types of QC). But let's not forget that Silence is pretty disruptive too.

Also, Silence let's you build your quanta to help recovering after the effect is gone.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Chapuz on August 17, 2013, 02:34:55 pm

This card is suposed to be blocked by sanct, imo.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 17, 2013, 04:51:06 pm

Quote from: Chapuz on August 17, 2013, 02:34:55 pm

This card is suposed to be blocked by sanct, imo.

No it isn't. At least not from what I had in mind. Because it does not "alter" the quanta pool (actually it does the opposite^^).

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: serprex on August 17, 2013, 04:59:05 pm

In that case disregard my arguments for making it 3|2
Except I disagree with you. Silence also does the opposite of hand altering, yet Sanctuary blocks. Sanctuary's purpose is immunity to hand/quanta control, don't lose sight of that in the face of wording

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: noneshallpass on August 19, 2013, 02:39:08 pm

After pondering, I decided that Sanctuary blocks Flatline. (See in "Notes")

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Nabbo on August 19, 2013, 04:24:42 pm

Why not make it jam all pillars and pendulums for one turn, both yours and your opponents. It could cost 3/2
The dissadvantage would balance up the cost, and it could be effective in decks producing quanta in other ways than pillars/pedulums.

Btw. This card could be a real pain in immolation rushes.

Title: Re: Flatline | Flatline
Post by: Zignaught on December 31, 2013, 04:57:27 am

Quote from: serprex on August 17, 2013, 04:59:05 pm

Sanctuary's purpose is immunity to hand/quanta control, don't lose sight of that in the face of wording

I disagree. If you have 2 or 3 EQ's you could just get rid of their pillars instead of block production for a turn. Sanctuary may be able to stop you from altering quanta but if it's not made your not messing with the pool, you are messing with the pillars. Totally different.