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Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg538908#msg538908
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2012, 02:33:29 am »
The problem though is that card cost doesn't really matter in this case.  Especially with the upgraded.  It can and will be played from your hand when your opponent draws.  I mean, yeah, you still need to draw it, but it might as well have been since it's an automatic cast...

Anyways, I can always count on you guys to help balance things out when I'm partially brain dead...

Bumped it to 8 damage.

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg538909#msg538909
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 02:35:38 am »
Not mutually exclusive. No reason I couldn't pack 6 of these (pre-nerf) into my UG deck to make only 2 UGs needed for the kill.

Now it's nerfed to being even worse than lightning! yaaay.
1 :darkness | :rainbow + 1 card = 5 damage to opponent
Yes. Then you would have 8 cards needed for the kill instead of 5.  Thus, UG has card advantage over this (pre- and post-nerf).
Yes, you are correct. UG kill does require less cards, but I still think many players would rather pay 6 :rainbow + 10 :air + 2 :fire + 8 cards over 25 :air + 5 :fire + 5 cards.

What I'm trying to say is that prenerf, this card's quanta advantage over UG outweighs the card disadvantage it has.

....Are you sure? Consider the difficulty of getting an 8-card kill combo off as opposed to a 5-card kill combo.  In the time it takes to draw the 5 (or 8) cards for the combo, quanta will almost assuredly not be an issue (assuming wind pillars with fire mark and wings or fog to block).

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg538910#msg538910
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 02:37:10 am »
Not mutually exclusive. No reason I couldn't pack 6 of these (pre-nerf) into my UG deck to make only 2 UGs needed for the kill.

Now it's nerfed to being even worse than lightning! yaaay.
1 :darkness | :rainbow + 1 card = 5 damage to opponent
Yes. Then you would have 8 cards needed for the kill instead of 5.  Thus, UG has card advantage over this (pre- and post-nerf).
Yes, you are correct. UG kill does require less cards, but I still think many players would rather pay 6 :rainbow + 10 :air + 2 :fire + 8 cards over 25 :air + 5 :fire + 5 cards.

What I'm trying to say is that prenerf, this card's quanta advantage over UG outweighs the card disadvantage it has.

....Are you sure? Consider the difficulty of getting an 8-card kill combo off as opposed to a 5-card kill combo.  In the time it takes to draw the 5 (or 8) cards for the combo, quanta will almost assuredly not be an issue (assuming wind pillars with fire mark and wings or fog to block).
Hmm. I'll admit that I have no concrete evidence to this, but if that were the case, I would assume it'd probably spawn a whole different type of OTK, using preocgs and SoBe to speed up draws for an 8 card combo and only 18 quanta as opposed to a stallish one that needs 5 cards and 30 quanta.

Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1013204#msg1013204
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 05:03:09 am »
Updated with Art

Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1013584#msg1013584
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2012, 06:05:12 pm »
Reading through this, I think an interesting point gets brought up:
 - How much is 1 point CC damage capability worth (in terms of cost theory)
 - How much is 1 point of player damage capability worth
 - How much is the added flexibility of being able to choose either worth
Once that gets ironed out, you can balance this against lightening, UG, and other bolts.

Honestly at 10 points to opponent, its not something you can build a deck around in and of itself. E.g. UG can actually KILL an opponent with no outside help. This card cannot.

Lastly, there is the "instinctive" mechanic to look at. This is tricky since it depends largely upon the mechanic it is being linked to. In this case, it is linked to card drawing... As far as I can tell this does next to nothing in terms of balance cost since it will effectively mean that it gets used the turn after it is drawn. Short of an opponent with mirror shield in play, there would be no reason not to use it asap anyway. Thus its an amusing, but extraneous mechanic that won't really add much to the card aside from a thematic feel.

If you link "instinctive" to something else, however, this could be a significant balancing mechanic. E.g. if it instead responded to an enemy playing a weapon or shield. That would be pretty cool, and could be used as balancing feature to some extent.

One other interesting thing you could do here (which I've been toying around with myself) is to have it make use of an equiped weapon. I.e. it could do, say, weapon damage + 4 or something like that.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 06:06:54 pm by OdinVanguard »
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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1013585#msg1013585
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2012, 06:17:07 pm »
If I am geting this right, cast this for 1 :darkness, sobe for 3 :rainbow with fire mark= 24 dmg?

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1013598#msg1013598
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2012, 08:39:04 pm »
Stab | Strike only activates on the first card drawn.

Offline mrezman

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1013719#msg1013719
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2012, 05:32:06 am »
I feel like this is basically spark except 5 damage more and one quantum. It will ALWAYS do the damage, unless you played nightmare on him the same turn.
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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1013954#msg1013954
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2012, 08:30:18 pm »
I feel like this is basically spark except 5 damage more and one quantum. It will ALWAYS do the damage, unless you played nightmare on him the same turn.
Thats essentially what I was trying to point out about using "instinctive" with card drawing proc. Since card drawing is an almost guaranteed event, the autocast mechanic doesn't really do much other than make you play it on the opponent's next turn.

Tying instinctive to a different event may be a more interesting use of the mechanic. Otherwise you may as well just leave it out for simplicity's sake
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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1013993#msg1013993
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2012, 11:36:40 pm »
I think it would be interesting to make this card somehow interact with dagger/vampire stiletto.


Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Re: Stab | Strike https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43234.msg1014013#msg1014013
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2012, 12:39:20 am »
I feel like this is basically spark except 5 damage more and one quantum. It will ALWAYS do the damage, unless you played nightmare on him the same turn.
Thats essentially what I was trying to point out about using "instinctive" with card drawing proc. Since card drawing is an almost guaranteed event, the autocast mechanic doesn't really do much other than make you play it on the opponent's next turn.

Tying instinctive to a different event may be a more interesting use of the mechanic. Otherwise you may as well just leave it out for simplicity's sake

Well, this isn't intended so much for use actively.  Instinctive was just to introduce the concept of not having to play a spell card.  If this ever does get considered, it may expand Nightmare-like cards for Spells.  But for now, it's limited to drawing, SoBe, and the occasional Mindgate.

 

blarg: