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fede91

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg423655#msg423655
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2011, 11:22:47 am »
Fractal does make balancing these cards more difficult. However it is still possible.

Problem:
Fractal triggers pacts more often than non fractal methods.
Solution:
Make the effect triggered less useful to fractal decks than it is to non fractal decks.

The quanta absorption per creature played is a rather inelegant solution but it works. A more elegant solution would be preferred.
We thought about creating the passive ability "Pact": pact destroys previous pact when played, absorbs 1 quanta of matching element when a creature is played, and if you have no quanta of that type it would destroy itself ad would do 15 damages to its controller. In this way, it seems to be a real pact: infact, if you broke a pact, you will pay a "penality". Why do you say that it's no much elegant?

Ekki

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg423704#msg423704
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2011, 02:32:57 pm »
Why do you say that it's no much elegant?
^^This. It's actually the way a pact would work (as far as my definition of pact goes). Also, adding that penalty sounds great to me :D

Problem:
Fractal triggers pacts more often than non fractal methods.
Solution:
Make the effect triggered less useful to fractal decks than it is to non fractal decks.
Yeah, you're right. But as far as I see it, fractalling Photons would lead to massive pact use/abuse, and you could make the deck all about pacts+fractal+photons/sparks... I think the best way is to just balance the combo, and IMO, giving it a cost per use sounds OK. You can still win by just spawning photons/sparks, but you'd have to take care of quanta balance, and making the destroyed pact actually giving you a penalty sounds like more interesting...
Anyways, I would like to see what's your idea of a better way to balance this with Fractal... I guess you might have an idea, but I have none *mind hurts* :-\

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg423790#msg423790
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2011, 06:12:42 pm »
Fractal does make balancing these cards more difficult. However it is still possible.

Problem:
Fractal triggers pacts more often than non fractal methods.
Solution:
Make the effect triggered less useful to fractal decks than it is to non fractal decks.

The quanta absorption per creature played is a rather inelegant solution but it works. A more elegant solution would be preferred.
We thought about creating the passive ability "Pact": pact destroys previous pact when played, absorbs 1 quanta of matching element when a creature is played, and if you have no quanta of that type it would destroy itself ad would do 15 damages to its controller. In this way, it seems to be a real pact: infact, if you broke a pact, you will pay a "penality". Why do you say that it's no much elegant?
Three reasons the solution is inelegant.
1) Because the consequence is not inherent in the benefit. If the effect triggered was less useful to swarms of small creature than to a few large creatures then the benefit would balance the two combos.
2) The balancing fix feels like 2 separate passives. (the pact destroying a previous pact is not a balancing fix it is a coding requirement)
3) 3 effects is more complicated than 2 effects.

How I would improve this card:

Have only 2 effects (not written in card description language)
1) Pacts destroy the previous pact when played
2) When a creature is played trigger effect X

I would then notice:
1)the trigger favors Fractal > Normal play
2)Fractal favors Small Cheap Swarm > Large Expensive Few
3)Normal play favors Large Expensive Few > Small Cheap Swarm

Therefore I would make effect X favor Large Expensive Few > Small Cheap Swarm. Pandemonium would be an interesting possibility. Large creatures are more resilient. Pandemonium hits swarms harder. However a new effect would be better than an old effect.
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fede91

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425250#msg425250
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2011, 11:41:58 am »
We think that pacts can:
1) Destroy previous pacts when played.
2) Last 3 turns (all pacts, I have to radically modify druidic pact and night pact (I think I would delete night pact and create a new one)). Also upgraded version.
3) They can say "whenever you play a (matching element) creature, you can...". Pact is destroyed if you play a creature of an other colour (its ability doesn't activate): this eliminates fractaling photons or spark (there aren't  :light and  :aether pacts). Therefore, this favours mono-deck colours (like mono time, for example). We wanted to use old abilities because pacts can take the place of spells in hand: the innovation (we thougt) is that pacts activate ability when a creature is played (there aren't cards of this type). I think that this modify can make pacts better cards, and also suits with the idea of a pact (I promise you that I play only creatures of your colour and you give me an advantage for several turns). What do you think?

fede91

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425251#msg425251
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2011, 11:45:57 am »
We think that pacts can:
1) Destroy previous pacts when played.
2) Last 3 turns (all pacts, I have to radically modify druidic pact and night pact (I think I would delete night pact and create a new one)). Also upgraded version.
3) They can say "whenever you play a (matching element) creature, you can...". Pact is destroyed if you play a creature of an other colour (its ability doesn't activate): this eliminates fractaling photons or spark (there aren't  :light and  :aether pacts). Therefore, this favours mono-deck colours (like mono time, for example). We wanted to use old abilities because pacts can take the place of spells in hand: the innovation (we thougt) is that pacts activate ability when a creature is played (there aren't cards of this type). I think that this modify can make pacts better cards, and also suits with the idea of a pact (I promise you that I play only creatures of your colour and you give me an advantage for several turns). What do you think?
We can also say that if a pact is stolen or destroyed it deals 15 damage to its controller (it wasn't able to mantain and defend his pact). But his is only a idea, I don't know if it's good.

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425254#msg425254
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2011, 11:58:44 am »
For me it looks like a good idea. You can also make it even better like drain X darkness quanta when destroyed. Ih those quantas cant be drained you loose the game.
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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425256#msg425256
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2011, 12:20:31 pm »
We think that pacts can:
1) Destroy previous pacts when played.
2) Last 3 turns (all pacts, I have to radically modify druidic pact and night pact (I think I would delete night pact and create a new one)). Also upgraded version.
3) They can say "whenever you play a (matching element) creature, you can...". Pact is destroyed if you play a creature of an other colour (its ability doesn't activate): this eliminates fractaling photons or spark (there aren't  :light and  :aether pacts). Therefore, this favours mono-deck colours (like mono time, for example). We wanted to use old abilities because pacts can take the place of spells in hand: the innovation (we thougt) is that pacts activate ability when a creature is played (there aren't cards of this type). I think that this modify can make pacts better cards, and also suits with the idea of a pact (I promise you that I play only creatures of your colour and you give me an advantage for several turns). What do you think?
Part 1 is obligatory
Part 2 is a consequence of part 1
Part 3 does not change much at all. Fractal would switch to Micro Abominations, Giant Frogs etc if they didn't start that way.

It is still biased in favor of Fractal.
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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425258#msg425258
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2011, 12:27:10 pm »
"Effect cannot occur more than twice per turn."

Inelegant, but problem solved.

fede91

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425320#msg425320
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2011, 05:36:56 pm »
We think that pacts can:
1) Destroy previous pacts when played.
2) Last 3 turns (all pacts, I have to radically modify druidic pact and night pact (I think I would delete night pact and create a new one)). Also upgraded version.
3) They can say "whenever you play a (matching element) creature, you can...". Pact is destroyed if you play a creature of an other colour (its ability doesn't activate): this eliminates fractaling photons or spark (there aren't  :light and  :aether pacts). Therefore, this favours mono-deck colours (like mono time, for example). We wanted to use old abilities because pacts can take the place of spells in hand: the innovation (we thougt) is that pacts activate ability when a creature is played (there aren't cards of this type). I think that this modify can make pacts better cards, and also suits with the idea of a pact (I promise you that I play only creatures of your colour and you give me an advantage for several turns). What do you think?
Part 1 is obligatory
Part 2 is a consequence of part 1
Part 3 does not change much at all. Fractal would switch to Micro Abominations, Giant Frogs etc if they didn't start that way.

It is still biased in favor of Fractal.
What about point 3 and "activates only if the creature played has a casting cost of 3 or more?"

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425341#msg425341
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2011, 06:29:53 pm »
We think that pacts can:
1) Destroy previous pacts when played.
2) Last 3 turns (all pacts, I have to radically modify druidic pact and night pact (I think I would delete night pact and create a new one)). Also upgraded version.
3) They can say "whenever you play a (matching element) creature, you can...". Pact is destroyed if you play a creature of an other colour (its ability doesn't activate): this eliminates fractaling photons or spark (there aren't  :light and  :aether pacts). Therefore, this favours mono-deck colours (like mono time, for example). We wanted to use old abilities because pacts can take the place of spells in hand: the innovation (we thougt) is that pacts activate ability when a creature is played (there aren't cards of this type). I think that this modify can make pacts better cards, and also suits with the idea of a pact (I promise you that I play only creatures of your colour and you give me an advantage for several turns). What do you think?
Part 1 is obligatory
Part 2 is a consequence of part 1
Part 3 does not change much at all. Fractal would switch to Micro Abominations, Giant Frogs etc if they didn't start that way.

It is still biased in favor of Fractal.
What about point 3 and "activates only if the creature played has a casting cost of 3 or more?"
There are good fractal creatures from Photon up through Charger. Some elements don't have any non Dragon/Nymph that costs more than 5. Not to mention that such an arbitrary limit would be inelegant.

Why not alter the benefit rather than the cost?
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fede91

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425444#msg425444
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2011, 09:55:44 pm »
We think that pacts can:
1) Destroy previous pacts when played.
2) Last 3 turns (all pacts, I have to radically modify druidic pact and night pact (I think I would delete night pact and create a new one)). Also upgraded version.
3) They can say "whenever you play a (matching element) creature, you can...". Pact is destroyed if you play a creature of an other colour (its ability doesn't activate): this eliminates fractaling photons or spark (there aren't  :light and  :aether pacts). Therefore, this favours mono-deck colours (like mono time, for example). We wanted to use old abilities because pacts can take the place of spells in hand: the innovation (we thougt) is that pacts activate ability when a creature is played (there aren't cards of this type). I think that this modify can make pacts better cards, and also suits with the idea of a pact (I promise you that I play only creatures of your colour and you give me an advantage for several turns). What do you think?
Part 1 is obligatory
Part 2 is a consequence of part 1
Part 3 does not change much at all. Fractal would switch to Micro Abominations, Giant Frogs etc if they didn't start that way.

It is still biased in favor of Fractal.
What about point 3 and "activates only if the creature played has a casting cost of 3 or more?"
There are good fractal creatures from Photon up through Charger. Some elements don't have any non Dragon/Nymph that costs more than 5. Not to mention that such an arbitrary limit would be inelegant.

Why not alter the benefit rather than the cost?
yes, it was a very stupid idea. Modifing the benefit goes far away the starting idea: if there is no choice we will think about modifing it, but (I think) this is a radical change. An idea that we had before posting pacts was that the creature played from hand hasn't to be into the field under your control (if you have, for example, a cockatrice in play and you play a cockatrice, pact effect doesn't activate). We discarded this idea in the past, but perhaps it could be good, or, at least, acceptable. Obviously with this idea the limitation about the cost that I wrote before isn't valid, you can play a creature of any colour (that was original idea).

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Re: Chaos pact | Chaos pact https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=33526.msg425520#msg425520
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2011, 12:18:41 am »
We think that pacts can:
1) Destroy previous pacts when played.
2) Last 3 turns (all pacts, I have to radically modify druidic pact and night pact (I think I would delete night pact and create a new one)). Also upgraded version.
3) They can say "whenever you play a (matching element) creature, you can...". Pact is destroyed if you play a creature of an other colour (its ability doesn't activate): this eliminates fractaling photons or spark (there aren't  :light and  :aether pacts). Therefore, this favours mono-deck colours (like mono time, for example). We wanted to use old abilities because pacts can take the place of spells in hand: the innovation (we thougt) is that pacts activate ability when a creature is played (there aren't cards of this type). I think that this modify can make pacts better cards, and also suits with the idea of a pact (I promise you that I play only creatures of your colour and you give me an advantage for several turns). What do you think?
Part 1 is obligatory
Part 2 is a consequence of part 1
Part 3 does not change much at all. Fractal would switch to Micro Abominations, Giant Frogs etc if they didn't start that way.

It is still biased in favor of Fractal.
What about point 3 and "activates only if the creature played has a casting cost of 3 or more?"
There are good fractal creatures from Photon up through Charger. Some elements don't have any non Dragon/Nymph that costs more than 5. Not to mention that such an arbitrary limit would be inelegant.

Why not alter the benefit rather than the cost?
yes, it was a very stupid idea. Modifing the benefit goes far away the starting idea: if there is no choice we will think about modifing it, but (I think) this is a radical change. An idea that we had before posting pacts was that the creature played from hand hasn't to be into the field under your control (if you have, for example, a cockatrice in play and you play a cockatrice, pact effect doesn't activate). We discarded this idea in the past, but perhaps it could be good, or, at least, acceptable. Obviously with this idea the limitation about the cost that I wrote before isn't valid, you can play a creature of any colour (that was original idea).
That would cause problems for Fractal and lesser problems for other decks. However it would cause a forced many card combo. Those tend to drastically shrink the versatility and usability of the card.

I thought Entropy Pact was the starting idea. If the CC hits both sides then the benefit would favor non fractal decks while the trigger would favor fractal decks resulting in a versatile balance.
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