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Elements the Game => Level 2 - Forge => Card Ideas and Art => Forge Archive => Topic started by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 07:21:44 pm

Title: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 07:21:44 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/5nM2e.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Fu6w7.png)
NAME:
Bond of Defiance
ELEMENT:
Fire
COST:
0
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
Inflicts 3 damage to the player who has the lowest current HP.
NAME:
Bond of Amplification
ELEMENT:
Fire
COST:
2 :fire
TYPE:
Permanent
ATK|HP:

TEXT:
Inflicts 4 damage to the enemy player. If his current HP is higher than yours, you take 2 damage instead.

ART:
odideph
IDEA:
odideph
NOTES:

You're stronger and you know it?  Prove it by playing this risky card.

This is a fire permanent that seeks to strengthen rushes to end the game as fast as possible. The  :fire version of a Bond, as i see it.
The damage is dealt every time your turn ends.
Does not build into clusters.
If N Bonds are in play, the effect will happen N times.
If both players have exactly the same current hit points, both take damage.



Example for Bond of Amplification:
1) I have 90 HP, my opponent has 80 HP, there are no creatures alive and no poison stacks. I play a Bond, it will deal 4 damage to the other player.
2) The turn after he plays nothing, and i play another Bond. This time he will take 8 damage.
3) Eventually he plays Miracle, getting 99HP, i still have 90 HP. I play nothing. The Bonds will thus deal 4 damage to myself.

It has synergy with itself and with the quick damage dealing of the fire element in general, but could be used in other elements aswell (unupped) because of the free quanta cost. Fire and other PC elements are safer with this card because they could destroy it if things go wrong (especially for the unupped one).

The upped version is safer and will backfire less dramatically if the enemy is able to turn the tides. Because it has a cost, it is also more restricted to monofire use, and is less likely to come into play very early.


Counters:
Many things, which will most likely cause horrible backfires:
-All heals (Miracle!), and heals-over-time by a lower margin.
-Max-HP-increasing cards (SoD, Stone SKin...)
-Hard countered by Shard of Sacrifice: the Bond will either heal the enemy or damage yourself.
-Reflective shields (it's spell damage)
-Destructive PC (Pulverizer, SoFo, Butterly Effect --- not Steal, not Mindgate)
-Players who just manage to deal more damage than you eventually but early enough (Mitosis/Fractal/Adrenaline/Acceleration...)
-Vampire creatures
-And of course, bad starts, where playing this will just kill you faster.

SERIES:

Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: furballdn on July 19, 2012, 07:32:45 pm
Most card games already have a way where the person who gets the head start usually gets the advantage. Bond of Defiance would just make that more prominent, especially matched up with :fire's aggressiveness and speed. Not sure about the balance of the upped version. It's pricey, yes, but the mechanics seem overly complicated, so I hadn't really seen the balance behind that.

That said, how does this fit thematically and with fire?
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 07:49:42 pm
This permanent tries to put the emphasis on  :fire's capability to deal the most damage the fastest, early in the game (that was for the mechanisms)

The thematic fitting is the same as Immolation, i'd say: Immo makes you take a "risk" by having you kill your own creature, that you could possibly have needed later on (for example, to help take down a bone wall or something...). The reward for that risk is a stronger Fire creature, which usually doesn't have much HP either. So, both cards make you take risks in exchange for potentially great damage output, as i see it.

From a more aesthetic point of view, i was thinking of Shard of Bravery when making this one, and Empathic Bond sort of. So i thought, "If there was a  :fire Bond, what would it look like?" and this is the result. It has a double-edged effect like SoB, and directly affects health based on the current state of the game like Empathic Bond.


The upped version's balance, well, i'm not sure either. It requires getting at least a 5 HP lead before even being played, else it will be weaker than the unupped version. And you still have to pay 8 (that's 4 minor phoenixes) to use it. But if you successfully do, you could deal very high spell damage to the enemy, ending the fight possibly twice as fast.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: furballdn on July 19, 2012, 07:53:50 pm
You mentioned immolation. Immobows are known to be one of the fastest deck types out there. If you can get out a golem first turn along with some support, you almost definitely have the hp advantage, even if you went second. If that's the case, bond of defiance is a free card that deals 5 damage per turn.

I'm assuming no stacking?
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 08:14:56 pm
Against such a rush for example, the enemy could play a Shard of Divinity and let the Bond owner kill himself over time (until the Golem grows big enough, that is). But yeah what you described is one of the uses of this card.

If by stacking you mean like pillars, who make a cluster (and you can PA them all with just one PA), no it doesn't.
If you mean "Do 2 Bonds deal the damage 2 times?", the answer would be yes.
Now that made me think further about the balance, and i'm going to lower the damage right now because i've just wondered what happens if you pack lightning bolts and this, aether mark, and get a Bolt and 2+ Bonds of Defiance first turn... Thanks for pointing that out.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: furballdn on July 19, 2012, 08:17:29 pm
Making only healing a counter to this would be a bad idea in my opinion. Remember, in a fast immorush, this is basically a free card that deals (however many damage you choose) per turn.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: OldTrees on July 19, 2012, 08:19:52 pm
Interesting. Nice simple effects. The difference between the upgraded and unupped allows for slightly different types of decks. I suspect both to be too efficient. A rush using Bonds should be slowed down enough to lose to a rush that does not use bonds.

Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: furballdn on July 19, 2012, 08:28:34 pm
It has been nerfed down to 3 damage. I am still not sure. I would like to see some playtest stats with fast rushes incorporating a few of these into their decks.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 08:29:58 pm
@ all previous posters: Yeah it was definitely too strong, i've lowered the damage to 3 (from 5) on unupped, and increased the cost to 10 (from 8 ) on upped.
That way unupped doesn't deal any more than a < 10 quanta Firebolt, and upped costs more than a Cremation gives. That should do.

While 3 damage per turn may look like much, the main dilemma is still that it can end up damaging you in various circumstances (and a minor phoenix does more damage).

I'll just proceed to list every counter i can think of right now (in main post).

EDIT: done.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: artimies7 on July 19, 2012, 08:49:58 pm
Card and table don't match currently.

Though it's a nice Fire card. Perhaps a cooldown to prevent spamming?
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 09:18:10 pm
Card and table don't match currently.

Though it's a nice Fire card. Perhaps a cooldown to prevent spamming?
Thanks, fixed.

I'm not sure what you mean by cooldown, it's a permanent that automatically deals damage at the end of your turn.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: Dm on July 19, 2012, 09:38:41 pm
Card and table don't match currently.

Though it's a nice Fire card. Perhaps a cooldown to prevent spamming?
Thanks, fixed.

I'm not sure what you mean by cooldown, it's a permanent that automatically deals damage at the end of your turn.

Something like "When damage is dealt, this permanent is in stasis for a turn." Or w/e.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on July 19, 2012, 09:50:21 pm
Seems exciting, but too OP upped and can be proven early game ender. I kinda like the unupped version, though I would put '2 damage or 3 damage if the controller of this card has a :fire mark' instead. About the upped one, it seems completely OP to me, we don't want to turn cards like Dis Shield, Dim Shield and Wings useless, :fire has Deflag for such purposes and high attack creatures for finishing off a weakened opponent, no need for a game ender like Bond of Amplification to exists...  :-\
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 10:15:01 pm
I wouldn't mind adding such a thing (innate self-procrastination?) but there's no more room on the upped card. This sounds silly, but is kind of an indicator that it would start making the card complicated. Assuming the upped one isn't complicated yet.

If such a slow-down is required, i will just do it by lowering the damage to 2 (bare minimum imo) or adding a fire cost to the unupped one. Do you think it is? Because having a permanent that can directly harm & kill yourself is one hell of a drawback already...

EDIT: ARTHANASIOS posted while i was writing. So:
Bond of Amplification is meant exactly for that, ending the game over few turns, provided you have taken a good enough early HP advantage. I agree that Dim shield and the likes don't need more counters, but now there is SoW on top of Momentum, Shard of Freedom, and every PC in existence.

Dim shields are no longer the very strong stalling card that i knew when i started playing, now we need a wider array of shields, and Reflective shields have been given much more use since SoW came out. This is another card that would make them possibly as useful as other shields i guess? Becaus let's face it, they absolutely wreck this card. In any case (except perfectly equal HP) the owner will be the one damaged every turn. Countering massive damage with a 1 :light cost immaterial shield sounds fair to me, on top of all the other counters (see in original post). Same deal as Purify VS any amount of poison.

Also it makes  :light abit more useful: Luciferin, Holy Flash, Miracle, Reflective Shield... i'd be happy about that as a bonus. I agree that the damage output would normally warrant a higher cost (14  :aether for a Phase Dragon, sounded like a good basis at first), but then again i remembered that balance implies that anything that can backfire at all gets a compensation somewhere, usually in cost. That's why upped Panda costs more than unupped, it cannot hit your creatures.

Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on July 19, 2012, 10:27:59 pm
I wouldn't mind adding such a thing (innate self-procrastination?) but there's no more room on the upped card. This sounds silly, but is kind of an indicator that it would start making the card complicated. Assuming the upped one isn't complicated yet.

If such a slow-down is required, i will just do it by lowering the damage to 2 (bare minimum imo) or adding a fire cost to the unupped one. Do you think it is? Because having a permanent that can directly harm & kill yourself is one hell of a drawback already...

 The problem with Bond of Amplification is that you will never play it unless it will be a game ender, and not sooner, for two reasons; the first reason is its cost and the second reason is its effect which will let you deal about double the damage per turn. If I would compare it with an Elements card that already exists, that would be Sky Blitz. The problem is that while a Sky Blitz effect in :air is balanced, in :fire it is overpowered. Personally, I think you should use the same mechanic in both upped/unupped versions with a small difference; the upped version wouldn't deal damage to you, but only to your opponent.
Title: Re: Bond of Defiance | Bond of Amplification
Post by: odideph on July 19, 2012, 10:55:37 pm
The problem with Bond of Amplification is that you will never play it unless it will be a game ender, and not sooner, for two reasons; the first reason is its cost and the second reason is its effect which will let you deal about double the damage per turn. If I would compare it with an Elements card that already exists, that would be Sky Blitz. The problem is that while a Sky Blitz effect in :air is balanced, in :fire it is overpowered. Personally, I think you should use the same mechanic in both upped/unupped versions with a small difference; the upped version wouldn't deal damage to you, but only to your opponent.

That would be a safe way to make a good upgrade for it indeed. I was just trying to be more creative, but if the damage amplification is unbalanceable i might just switch to what you said for submitting this to the polls.

EDIT: yeah the more i thought about this, the more i realized the upped wasn't going to be really balanceable. So i remade it into a  :death instant Spell, Tragedy (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,42108.msg523415.html#msg523415). I will now update Bond of Amplification in the fashion you described.
blarg: