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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1023908#msg1023908
« on: December 20, 2012, 07:59:26 am »
NAME:
Arc Engine
ELEMENT:
Gravity
COST:
2 :gravity
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 14
TEXT:
Electrify : When damaged, generates :aether equal to amount of damage received.
NAME:
Arc Engine
ELEMENT:
Gravity
COST:
2 :gravity
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 18
TEXT:
Electrify : When damaged, generates :aether equal to amount of damage received.

ART:
Stahlkocher
IDEA:
Zblader, with inspiration from Pineapple
NOTES:
A damage based card that works well with various cards such as Gravity Pull and Rage Potion.

Similar to Voodoo Doll, creating a copy 'remembers' the amount of damage given to it as well, so you will gain :aether if you TU a damaged Arc Engine.
SERIES:


Spoiler for Hidden:
NAME:
Arc Engine
ELEMENT:
Gravity
COST:
2 :gravity
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 16
TEXT:
Electrify : When damaged, generates :aether equal to amount of damage received.
NAME:
Arc Engine
ELEMENT:
Gravity
COST:
2 :gravity
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
0 | 24
TEXT:
Electrify : When damaged, generates :aether equal to amount of damage received.

ART:
Stahlkocher
IDEA:
Zblader, with inspiration from Pineapple
NOTES:
A damage based card that works well with various cards such as Gravity Pull and Rage Potion.

Similar to Voodoo Doll, creating a copy 'remembers' the amount of damage given to it as well, so you will gain :aether if you TU a damaged Arc Engine.
SERIES:

« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 07:44:17 pm by Zblader »

Offline Absol

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1023913#msg1023913
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 08:31:21 am »
First thing comes into mind: "Yes! A Trio Railgun!"
Calculation please. I think it could be very strong.
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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1023929#msg1023929
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 10:16:31 am »
Fractal :gravity decks without any :aether Pillars/Towers/Pends! OMG!
In unupped meta, I don't think it can become very strong. However, upped :gravity is awesome, so being able to Fractal things easily can be devastating.
But excellent idea, I approve! :D
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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1023937#msg1023937
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 11:42:52 am »
Fractal :gravity decks without any :aether Pillars/Towers/Pends! OMG!
In unupped meta, I don't think it can become very strong. However, upped :gravity is awesome, so being able to Fractal things easily can be devastating.
But excellent idea, I approve! :D
You would need 1 arc + 1 GP for every fractal you want to play. I like it.
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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1023966#msg1023966
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 03:58:30 pm »
So many beautiful combinations! Fractal this after GP...throw in a Dessication and maybe get some Flayers out. I love this idea!
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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1024084#msg1024084
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 10:05:48 pm »
First thing comes into mind: "Yes! A Trio Railgun!"
Calculation please. I think it could be very strong.
I don't have an exact formula for this one, but here's my thought process:
Spoiler for Hidden:

First, I started with Colossal Dragon/Massive Dragon.

1 ATK ~= 1  :underworld
Therefore an unupped 0 | 15 creature in theory is worth ~3 :underworld .
An upped 0 | 30 creature is apparently worth ~3 :underworld . (Upgrade is an extra :underworld)

However smaller creatures tend to be more cost efficient than just a 'downgraded' Dragon, as I realized when I started to compare to lower cost creatures.:


As you can see a vanilla 0 | 16  would probably be worth 1-2 :underworld according to Voodoo Doll.
A vanilla 0 | 20  would probably be worth 1-2 :underworld according to Voodoo Doll.
(Sidenote : It is difficult to find an exact formula for creature HP calculation - in general cheaper creatures seem to place less value on HP unless their ability is HP relevant like Guardian Angel or Otyugh. High-ATK creatures seem to value high HP more since it allows them to survive the CC they inevitably make themselves a target for.)

Quantum generation from RoLs and similar cards is continuous as opposed to Arc Engine's need for a 'trigger' - I assume that Arc Engine's ability is about equal due to being able to trigger off of other cards at the cost of not being able to kill creatures/interact with the field. In addition, Immolation + Weenie tends to have at least one of the cards involved in the combo cost 1 or less (unless said card is Phoenix). Engine's most effective combos usually require multiple cards (GP + Twin Universe, Fractal + Dessication), so I assume it would be more of a late-game staged card as opposed to an early quantum generator. (A risky Aether/Gravity rush with Gravity Pull might work though)



Similarly, Pestal is a cheap combo that can be used as an effective deck strategy. However there are several differences:

1) Pestal does not need to trigger off damage.
2) Pestal can disrupt the opponent without any help and still gives you quanta.
3) Pests have an additional skill to complement their ability - it seems Burrow + Drain ~= Damage Trigger + High HP, if one compares VD and Pest side by side.

Overall, I think Arc Engine is placed somewhere between Voodoo Doll and Pest in terms of value, which means it should end up costing about 2 :underworld :

Unupped:
ATK : 0
HP : 0 | 16 ~= 1-2 :underworld
Ability : Lacks a precedent, but requires another card as opposed to more generic quantum critters. Based on Voodoo Doll, the ability seems worth 1 :underworld at most. (Voodoo Doll's ability is likely more viable due to being able to create a win condition with another card that deals damage - Arc Engine cannot create a win condition by just +1 card (second card in combo would generate quantum, third card has to provide damage or stalling). Pests cannot create a win condition by themselves either but have the benefit of draining the enemy field.)
Final : 2-3 :underworld

Upped:
ATK : 0
HP : Assuming 0 | 8 is 0.5-1 :underworld, 0 | 24 is 1.5 :underworld - 3 :underworld
Ability : ~ 1 :underworld
Upgrade : -1 :underworld
Final : 0.5-3 :underworld (As you can the final upgraded values are a bit more sketchy. 1-cost high HP 'blockers' seem a bit too powerful, though (Rage Potion), so I left the cost the same.)

@Everyone else : Thanks for the feedback! I hope you all find this card's combo potential interesting. :)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 10:10:16 pm by Zblader »

Offline Joseph7

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1024098#msg1024098
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 10:39:39 pm »
Wonderful idea! When I first read the card's text, I thought, "Yes! A card which explains itself completely in the text box AND has an awesome ability!" Gravity is also a great engine for damage=quanta output, having gravity pull. I honestly believe that there should be a card with this mechanic of 'damage in = quanta out' in the game. Great idea!

Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1024115#msg1024115
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 11:11:08 pm »
While I do like the concept, I worry it may be a bit too powerful for the price given the combo w/ gravity pull.
I think the creature needs to be either a little weaker on HP... 16 HP for 2 :gravity is a little on the highish side. For a cost of 2 :gravity , I think 8 to 12 hp would be better... It cost half armagio's cost, it makes sense it should only have about half its hp... we do see voodoo doll with 16 hp, but voodoo doll is not in the same element as its most potent combo.

I would say cost should go up 1 :gravity or hp should come down a little bit...

That said, as is this card seems fairly well balanced.

It has potential to generate quite a bit of quanta, but it will take several cards to get a robust combo going.

This + gp + bb could allow for a very efficient, and quite potent, trio...
Would make for a nice railgun setup.
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Offline Raptor6789

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1024508#msg1024508
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2012, 12:32:14 am »
I'd agree; it might be a bit too strong. This + Acceleration is so much more cost effective than an Armagio + Acceleration, yet it's upped form has almost the same hp.

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1024632#msg1024632
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2012, 07:54:21 am »
Ah, it's been a while since I've seen a rather simple idea like this.  Or so I think.

Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1026905#msg1026905
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 07:44:23 pm »
Quote
I think the creature needs to be either a little weaker on HP... 16 HP for 2 :gravity is a little on the highish side. For a cost of 2 :gravity , I think 8 to 12 hp would be better... It cost half armagio's cost, it makes sense it should only have about half its hp... we do see voodoo doll with 16 hp, but voodoo doll is not in the same element as its most potent combo.
Note that Armagio also has a built-in GP, which probably contributes to its cost at some point.

IMHO this card is similar in strength to Voodoo Doll, but with a difference - it fuels the  :aether part of a trio but you need some source of ATK to be able to kill the opponent (I doubt an Arc Engine stall would be viable unless you found some way to have more than 6 Gravity Pulls).  One of the reasons Voodoo Doll is viable is because it helps you win faster with small increments of damage - Arc Engine also does this with additional quanta but you also need to play more cards. (The main exception, Arc Engine + Acceleration is probably more durable than VD + Acceleration since it can refuel TUs faster, but it loses the extra 1 DoT that Voodoo Doll can inflict.)

I can't deny that Arc Engine does have the advantage in potentially using less elements, though (and that quanta > damage) , so less HP than Voodoo Doll seems reasonable.

Card Updated:
HP lowered to 14 | 18



Offline MaTianLong

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Re: Arc Engine | Arc Engine https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45235.msg1034969#msg1034969
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2013, 05:46:16 am »
Quintessence on this.... what a a strange door-holder
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