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[Antagon]

I've been thinking about the 240 cards in terms of 30-card chunks.  With a 12-card max it might make sense to create four 30-card decks and then just double them.  If we were absolutely in love with four decks and didn't feel a need to vary any cards opportunistically against specific opponents, that'd be the way to go.

I get the impression that antagon feels differently (as do I), so maybe the best approach is to create five decks, double our two favorite, and have 30 cards reserved for opportunistic cards (e.g. Purify).  Antagon's deck should be built with his six upped cards in mind (e.g. the fractal phoenix deck I posted above).  Antagon can then decide which decks to pit against whom.  If for instance Kami and corrum draw Light opponents and I draw Death, Antagon would use his fractal phoenix deck, and might decide to have Kami and corrum each use the speed golem deck we doubled, choosing a fire lance deck for me.  He might add a firestorm to the two speed golem decks (fearing fractal rol-hope from the Light opponents) and a Purify or two with a water mark to the fire lance deck (fearing poison... obviously).

I don't mean to take the lead here and I'm not at all married to any of my ideas.  I find the best way to initiate a conversation is to offer an opinion for people to discuss.

Thoughts?

yes, think thats all fine, and i WANT you all to create leading ideas, as long as they get discussed then.

im currently in love with 1-2x mono-fire deck (fahrenheits, bolts and 2-4 dragons, one example in the first posting), speed phoenix/golem (maybe the strongest build so maybe 2 times or 1-1, what you all prefer, golem or phoenix'), the fractal-phoenix for me as good and surprising deck, but i also would like the upgraded speed-phoenix idea, also already posted.
i also like the incredible fast nova-graboid idea.

i will make thread for single decks, feel free to do the same thing and post comments/suggestions.

[Antagon]

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i replaced a fractal with a aether pillar from kevkevs original build, have tested it a bit and it works fine, suggestions?



2nd also already posted,

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maybe a 3rd deflag for the ragepotion, any (other) suggestions

[Antagon]

THE VAULT

Total number of cards: 360

Aether ------------------------------- 13 x Aether Pillar 6 x Spark 3 x Lighting 0 x Parallel Universe 0 x Imortal 6 x Dimensional Shield 0 x Phase Dragon 0 x Phase Spider 3 x Quintessence 4 x Fractal 0 x Turquoise Nymph 1 x Lobotomizer ------------------------------- 36 cards	Air ------------------------------- 0 x Wind Pillar 0 x Dragonfly 0 x Wyrm 0 x Azure Dragon 4 x Fog Shield 0 x Thunderstorm 0 x Flying Weapon 0 x Firefly Queen 0 x Firefly 0 x Unstable Gas 0 x Shockwave 0 x Blue Nymph 0 x Owl's Eye ------------------------------- 4 cards	Darkness ------------------------------- 0 x Obsidian Pillar 0 x Black Dragon 0 x Devourer 0 x Parasite 0 x Dusk Mantle 1 x Steal 0 x Nightfall 0 x Drain Life 0 x Minor Vampire 0 x Liquid Shadow 0 x Black Nymph 1 x Vampire Stiletto ------------------------------- 2 cards	Death ------------------------------- 0 x Bone Pillar 0 x Bone Dragon 0 x Virus 0 x Flesh Spider 0 x Vulture 0 x Skull Shield 0 x Skeleton 0 x Boneyard 6 x Poison 0 x Plague 0 x Bone Wall 0 x Aflatoxin 0 x Mummy 0 x Grey Nymph 5 x Arsenic ------------------------------- 11 cards
Earth ------------------------------- 7 x Stone Pillar 0 x Antlion 0 x Hematite Golem 0 x Stone Dragon 0 x Titanium Shield 0 x Plate Armor 0 x Gnome Rider 5 x Graboid 0 x Shrieker 0 x Enchant Artifact 6 x Earthquake 0 x Stone Skin 1 x Basillisk Blood 0 x Auburn Nymph 0 x Pulverizer ------------------------------- 19 cards	Entropy ------------------------------- 0 x Amethyst Pillar 0 x Maxwell's Demon 0 x Abomination 0 x Purple Dragon 0 x Dissipation Shield 2 x Lycanthrope 0 x Chaos Seed 6 x Nova 0 x Mutation 0 x Fallen Elf 0 x Antimatter 0 x Butterfly Effect 0 x Purple Nymph 0 x Discord ------------------------------- 8 cards	Fire ------------------------------- 103 x Burning Pillar 0 x Ash Eater 18 x Crimson Dragon 8 x Fire Spirit 18 x Fire Bolt 1 x Fire Shield 18 x Deflagration 6 x Rain of Fire 18 x Immolation 12 x Lava Golem 8 x Rage Potion 18 x Phoenix 0 x Red Nymph 16 x Fahrenheit ------------------------------- 244 cards	Gravity ------------------------------- 0 x Gravity Pillar 0 x Sapphire Charger 0 x Armagio 0 x Graviton Mercenary 0 x Colossal Dragon 0 x Gravity Shield 3 x Momentum 0 x Otyugh 0 x Gravity Pull 0 x Graviton Fire Eater 0 x Black Hole 0 x Amber Nymph 0 x Titan ------------------------------- 3 cards
Life ------------------------------- 0 x Emerald Pillar 0 x Emerald Dragon 0 x Horned Frog 0 x Rustler 0 x Cockatrice 2 x Forest Spirit 0 x Heal 0 x Thorn Carapace 0 x Emerald Shield 0 x Empathic Bond 0 x Adrenaline 0 x Green Nymph 0 x Druidic Staff ------------------------------- 2 cards	Light ------------------------------- 0 x Light Pillar 6 x Photon 0 x Golden Dragon 0 x Pegasus 3 x Holy Light 0 x Solar Shield 0 x Guardian Angel 0 x Blessing 2 x Reflective Shield 0 x Miracle 0 x Luciferin 0 x Hope 0 x White Nymph 0 x Morning Star ------------------------------- 11 cards	Time ------------------------------- 0 x Time Factory 0 x Deja Vu 0 x Fate Egg 0 x Procastination 3 x Reverse Time 0 x Golden Hourglass 0 x Devonian Dragon 0 x Anubis 6 x Sundial 0 x Scarab 0 x Precognition 0 x Pharaoh 0 x Golden Nymph 0 x Eternety ------------------------------- 9 cards	Water ------------------------------- 0 x Sapphire Pillar 0 x Chrysoara 0 x Blue Crawler 3 x Freeze 0 x Ice Bolt 0 x Ice Shield 2 x Purify 0 x Arctic Squid 0 x Ice Dragon 0 x Toadfish 0 x Mind Flayer 0 x Nymph's Tears 0 x Flooding 0 x Nymph Queen 0 x Trident ------------------------------- 5 cards
Other ------------------------------- 0 x Quantum Pillar 0 x Dagger 0 x Short Sword 0 x Hammer 6 x Mark of Fire ------------------------------- 6 cards

[kev]

I'm not sure what I was doing in that original fractal phoenix...  I was only able to find two decent fractal phoenix decks on the forum here  (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg43708#msg43708) and here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,4630.msg51275#msg51275).  They both indicate a need to find prolly only one fractal, so I definitely shouldn't have built in six.  They also look to have either less aether or a bunch of aether pillars but also phase shields.  I also pretty regularly beat up on fractal phoenix by chaining phase shields, so I'd definitely throw in deflags.  Those will help in other ways as well, obviously.

I recommended fractal phoenix as the upped deck cuz the difference between phoenix upped and unupped is monumental.  Short of Hope or terrible luck, I don't see how an unupped deck would be able to touch you when we're finished tweaking.

[kev]

We need to remain aware of the 12-card restriction.  Speed golems and your phoenix decks both use immolations, for instance.  So if we want both decks, we can't copy either and we can't use immolations in any other decks.  Incidentally, that's the trouble w/mono fire decks.  If we copied the mono in Antagon's first post here, for the remaining 5 decks we'd have 0 fire bolts, 6 Crimson Dragons, 6 Deflags, and 6 Farenheits.

Maybe we should work on our two best ideas to copy and ensure that we don't break the 12-card restriction with those two decks?  Then we could build the other three decks with the remaining cards?  I dunno.  Just tossing out ideas here.

One more thing: anybody who sees they're matched up against fire will recognize a possibility they're up against a fire lance deck.  Since we can't switch cards between matches, we'd have to be damn sure opponent won't splash light for a reflector shield.

[Antagon]

IF you are able to post your decks AFTER seedings, everyone needs at least a 2nd deck, cause its too easy to counter a strategy when you know the deck.

hm... 1-2 deflags for an aether pillar and/or a phoenix.

ill go for testing it now against ai3


*edit*:

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the steal - for REALLY important permanents - is better than deflag, cause u will only use it lategame and then 3 immolations are ok, lobotomizer not needed. only problem is discord, but i think its also hard enough to deal with also with a deflag.

[Antagon]

One more thing: anybody who sees they're matched up against fire will recognize a possibility they're up against a fire lance deck.  Since we can't switch cards between matches, we'd have to be damn sure opponent won't splash light for a reflector shield.

in that case, also unstable gas deck is more or less useless, firelance - at least - can also be used against creatures, and you can win with fahrenheit+dragons. (6 damagedealers, still)


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that would be my idea:

1x GRABOIDS

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1x SPEED PHOENIX

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MASTER VARIATIONS:
MASTER PHOENIX

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FRACTAL PHOENIX

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1x

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2x

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1x

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thats 6 Decks and (with ALL possibilities)

Aether ------------------------------- 9 x Aether Pillar 6 x Spark 3 x Lighting 0 x Parallel Universe 0 x Imortal 2 x Dimensional Shield 0 x Phase Dragon 0 x Phase Spider 0 x Quintessence 4 x Fractal 0 x Turquoise Nymph	Air ------------------------------- 0 x Wind Pillar 0 x Dragonfly 0 x Wyrm 0 x Azure Dragon 4 x Fog Shield 0 x Thunderstorm 0 x Flying Weapon 0 x Firefly Queen 0 x Firefly 0 x Unstable Gas 0 x Shockwave 0 x Blue Nymph	Darkness ------------------------------- 0 x Obsidian Pillar 0 x Black Dragon 0 x Devourer 0 x Parasite 0 x Dusk Mantle 1 x Steal 0 x Nightfall 0 x Drain Life 0 x Minor Vampire 0 x Liquid Shadow 0 x Black Nymph	Death ------------------------------- 3 x Arsenic 0 x Bone Pillar 0 x Bone Dragon 0 x Virus 0 x Flesh Spider 0 x Vulture 0 x Skull Shield 0 x Skeleton 0 x Boneyard 0 x Poison 0 x Plague 0 x Bone Wall 0 x Aflatoxin 0 x Mummy 0 x Grey Nymph
Earth ------------------------------- 7 x Stone Pillar 0 x Antlion 0 x Hematite Golem 0 x Stone Dragon 0 x Titanium Shield 0 x Plate Armor 0 x Gnome Rider 5 x Graboid 0 x Shrieker 0 x Enchant Artifact 6 x Earthquake 0 x Stone Skin 1 x Basillisk Blood 0 x Auburn Nymph	Entropy ------------------------------- 0 x Amethyst Pillar 0 x Maxwell's Demon 0 x Abomination 0 x Purple Dragon 0 x Dissipation Shield 2 x Lycanthrope 0 x Chaos Seed 6 x Nova 0 x Mutation 0 x Fallen Elf 0 x Antimatter 0 x Butterfly Effect 0 x Purple Nymph	Fire ------------------------------- 44 x Burning Pillar 8 x Fahrenheit 0 x Ash Eater 7 x Crimson Dragon 2 x Fire Spirit 12 x Fire Bolt 0 x Fire Shield 12 x Deflagration 4 x Rain of Fire 12 x Immolation 12 x Lava Golem 8 x Rage Potion 12 x Phoenix 0 x Red Nymph	Gravity ------------------------------- 0 x Gravity Pillar 0 x Sapphire Charger 0 x Armagio 0 x Graviton Mercenary 0 x Colossal Dragon 0 x Gravity Shield 0 x Momentum 0 x Otyugh 0 x Gravity Pull 0 x Graviton Fire Eater 0 x Black Hole 0 x Amber Nymph
Life ------------------------------- 0 x Emerald Pillar 0 x Emerald Dragon 0 x Horned Frog 0 x Rustler 0 x Cockatrice 2 x Forest Spirit 0 x Heal 0 x Thorn Carapace 0 x Emerald Shield 0 x Empathic Bond 0 x Adrenaline 0 x Green Nymph	Light ------------------------------- 0 x Light Pillar 6 x Photon 0 x Golden Dragon 0 x Pegasus 0 x Holy Light 0 x Solar Shield 0 x Guardian Angel 0 x Blessing 0 x Reflective Shield 0 x Miracle 0 x Luciferin 0 x Hope 0 x White Nymph	Time ------------------------------- 0 x Time Factory 0 x Deja Vu 0 x Fate Egg 0 x Procastination 3 x Reverse Time 0 x Golden Hourglass 0 x Devonian Dragon 0 x Anubis 0 x Sundial 0 x Scarab 0 x Precognition 0 x Pharaoh 0 x Golden Nymph	Water ------------------------------- 0 x Sapphire Pillar 0 x Chrysoara 0 x Blue Crawler 3 x Freeze 0 x Ice Bolt 0 x Ice Shield 0 x Purify 0 x Arctic Squid 0 x Ice Dragon 0 x Toadfish 0 x Mind Flayer 0 x Nymph's Tears 0 x Flooding 0 x Nymph Queen
Other ------------------------------- 0 x Quantum Pillar 0 x Dagger 0 x Short Sword 0 x Hammer

thats a total of

44 burning pillars
89 fire
24 aether
4 wind
1 darkness
3 death
19 earth
8 entropy
0 gravity
2 life
6 light
3 time
3 water
0 other

206 cards (34 cards left)



also 133 fire cards, so no more fire cards a must.

so 4 really strong and a 5th pretty strong deck (this is just an example, but i tested earthquake-golem deck and it worked very very nice, against AI3 at least), and still enough fire cards left (rain of fires, rage potions, fire shields, dragons, fahrenheits, spirits AND the cards not used by me, for example the golem-earthquake deck with 6 upgraded earthquakes) to build quite good decks, maybe with gravity, death or darkness.

[Corrum]

these all look very good.  I haven't been able to come up with any other variants today but I will keep tinkering with the trainer.  Most of what I have tried just seems slow.

[Antagon]

you could also try to test existing decks and try to improve them somehow, or to verify, that they are good

[Corrum]

yes, trying some against ai3.  later I will try them in pvp1 to see how they fare as well.

[Antagon]

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possible, if we decide to use this cards in vault, deck-out-deck against darkness players. most will use 30 cards (maybe 31), and it is high risk (but we can also use light mark with the mono fire deck and get the holy lights in, and maybe also 1 reflective shield), BUT if you post this decklist after a game, you won, youll get a few "wows" the single fahrenheit if opponent really without permanent-control to win, or also against death then.

our vault is not visible, so they maybe dont exspect holy lights, with reflective shield (in mono-red) you can counter opposite reflective shields (by targeting yourself, enemy gets damaged, no matter which shield)

just an idea

[kev]

I tested the five you posted.  Overall, they're extremely good.  Very impressive.

Notes:
I think we could probably replace one farenheit in the mono w/something else.
I'm of the opinion Discord is the most OP card in a war with these rules specifically.  I'm looking for places to fit it in, but it's tough w/o overhauling some of the decks.
Remember I have a red nymph if we wanna use her somewhere.

The fire/light deck out deck is interesting.  I tried fire/death and couldn't get it right as I'd said.  I thought about fire/life w/healing or fire/earth w/earthquakes and stone skin.

Also, I don't think I've even met Kami.  Is he around?

Thinking more about a 7th deck, if we wanted to make one: Based on what cards we have remaining, we could almost double the first graboid deck.  We'd have to do -1 explosion, -1 rage to not break the 12 card rule (and then +2 of reverse time/lightning/blessing/freeze/fire eater/something else).

Edit: the +2 has to be fire, so maybe a pillar and a firestorm?  I offered this as a possible solution only if you'd rather try something more speed rainbow than traditional duo-deck.  If duo-deck sounds like an ok option it may be worth testing an altered version of the gravity/fire I posted, which was better than most of the junk I've used to clot this thread.