Woe Alpha - Skill Feedback - Underworld

[Korugar]

Perhaps...what if the Underworld mark had another(or replacement, either way) ability: gives the ability to skip tier zero(mark) skills to get to the other skills? This would allow them to take one or two skills from all elements, allowing them to use an(almost) fully upgraded deck, if done right, without giving them nearly ultimate power in no man's land.

[TStar]

In a completely balanced format that might be true SG, but just look at the massive income disparity between UW and other elements right now.  UW takes 4 rounds to afford to buy a single card, compared to others that are almost up to 1 card per round income.  Compared to other elements UW take an incredibly long time to try and build more than a single deck option.  Once a player sees what a UW player is using in a battle it's not very hard to craft a mono counter to it, and it's even easier if that player has access to cards from other elements as well.  Don't forget all the most powerful rainbow cards are only available to UW through winning battles or trading with other elements.  If breeders and weaponsmiths decide to shut UW players out from Graboids, Forest Spirits, Discord, Arsenic, etc. then the UW options become seriously restricted.

I also don't see the problem with UW players having a huge advantage on a neutral hex.  These hexes are unruled and the bandits should have the huge advantage in the lawless wilderness.  I think about it like the old American "Wild West" where bandits and thieves were essentially running things.  You have to be careful not to nerf UW too much out of fear.  You've taken away their income potential, you've given them the least useful upped cards in their skill tree, they have the least flexibility in terms of building several different deck types because of their limited card availability.  While you view the UW mark as a huge benefit to them, in reality it's just as much a curse because unless you can carry a large vault of cards that allows you to succeed with multiple Marks you are greatly restricted in your options.  Just look at how being forced to use a Time Mark hurt Kael in his battle.  Rainbows are incredibly difficult to balance as it is, forcing the mark on one is usually enough to make it completely ineffective.  Let UW be hurt by fighting in enemy territory, but let them be strong in their own as well.

[Korugar]

You may be right. However, your analogy is incorrect. The only reason that bandits had an advantage in "lawless" areas were because of numbers and lack of lawmen(seems obvious, but let me explain). They would rob, kill, and whatnot, but they would do that to the defenseless ones, the rich ones, not the fighters. We, the elementals, are the fighters. We are(in your analogy) the lawmen. And when we come, you are no better than us. You, the bandits, only have power so long as we, the lawmen, ignore you. Get what I'm saying? From my point of view you make wilderness areas out to be under your control because you're stronger there. Not true. You just happen to be the only ones there.

[Shantu]

Maybe to overcome the income problem, UW players could receive a bonus in the first few rounds (+10-20 to each player). Maybe for 3 rounds. Then they could get something like 30-50 whenever they neutralize a captured hex (pillage and the like). So instead of a steady income, they would have to go around and pillage the hexes under control.

[TStar]

You may be right. However, your analogy is incorrect. The only reason that bandits had an advantage in "lawless" areas were because of numbers and lack of lawmen(seems obvious, but let me explain). They would rob, kill, and whatnot, but they would do that to the defenseless ones, the rich ones, not the fighters. We, the elementals, are the fighters. We are(in your analogy) the lawmen. And when we come, you are no better than us. You, the bandits, only have power so long as we, the lawmen, ignore you. Get what I'm saying? From my point of view you make wilderness areas out to be under your control because you're stronger there. Not true. You just happen to be the only ones there.

There is a reason the lawmen needed to form a posse of normal citizens to track down outlaws.  Your depiction of the lawmen being the absolute power that only allows bandits to exist if they ignored them is completely false.  A single lawman trying to rule a town of bandits was often killed.  Just look at the tale of Wyatt Earp, maybe the most famous of the old western lawmen.  Even he was eventually taken down by the bandits and outlaws.  It takes a large number of lawmen working together to civilize the wild west, and I don't see why that should be any different here.  Bringing law to the lawless isn't easy after all.

Unrelated question, what is the procedure for conflicting Marks?  Let's say a player from Aether takes the UW mark for example and fights a battle on a Time territory.  Would that player be able to chose an Aether Mark and ignore the UW mark limitations, or would the UW mark limit take precedence and force that player to use a Time mark?  I ask because the UW Mark text implies that you are required to use the Mark of the hex, while the Elemental Marks are say that a player may use the mark.  One implies forced action while the other implies an ability to use it but not a requirement.  If players can ignore the UW mark restriction in favor of their own starting mark that would just let players essentially use any Mark they desire on neutral hexes and their own Mark on enemy ones effectively ignoring the built-in balancing limits of the UW mark.  It's also important to clarify for any UW players who might want to take different element Marks to override their own UW restrictions if allowed.

[Korugar]

There is a reason the lawmen needed to form a posse of normal citizens to track down outlaws.  Your depiction of the lawmen being the absolute power that only allows bandits to exist if they ignored them is completely false.  A single lawman trying to rule a town of bandits was often killed.  Just look at the tale of Wyatt Earp, maybe the most famous of the old western lawmen.  Even he was eventually taken down by the bandits and outlaws.  It takes a large number of lawmen working together to civilize the wild west, and I don't see why that should be any different here.  Bringing law to the lawless isn't easy after all.

Yeah, of course numbers are going to take down even the best. But as you yourself said, a posse of normal citizens(not lawmen, meaning they aren't as skillful) to track down outlaws(plural). My point is, the "lawmen" shouldn't need overwhelming numbers to take one of you down. Sure, you should be as good as us(maybe a little better, due to your disadvantages), but you shouldn't be overwhelmingly powerful just because you're sitting on a hex not owned by one of us.

[TStar]

I guess I don't see how allowing any upped cards in a neutral hex instead of forcing UW to only use "Other" upped cards gives them an overwhelming advantage then.  Maybe in an environment where you have unlimited access to cards it would be, but without the usual rainbow powerhouse cards like Discord, Black Hole, Graboid, Forest Spirit to name a few the standard UW rainbow is not that strong at all, even if you let them up non-Other cards.

[Korugar]

Point taken. Still, being able to make any deck mostly upped is still quite powerful, even if you would have a hard time getting it.

[Wizardcat]

Why don't we test it? This is Alpha.

[Kael Hate]

Point taken. Still, being able to make any deck mostly upped is still quite powerful, even if you would have a hard time getting it.

So your Mono-Upped deck is ok but mine can't be?

[Korugar]

No....I'm perfectly fine with you having an upped deck. It's the part where you can have any deck upped, whereas you know what I'm likely to play due to upgrades. Make sense?

[Scaredgirl]

In a completely balanced format that might be true SG, but just look at the massive income disparity between UW and other elements right now.  UW takes 4 rounds to afford to buy a single card, compared to others that are almost up to 1 card per round income.  Compared to other elements UW take an incredibly long time to try and build more than a single deck option.  Once a player sees what a UW player is using in a battle it's not very hard to craft a mono counter to it, and it's even easier if that player has access to cards from other elements as well.  Don't forget all the most powerful rainbow cards are only available to UW through winning battles or trading with other elements.  If breeders and weaponsmiths decide to shut UW players out from Graboids, Forest Spirits, Discord, Arsenic, etc. then the UW options become seriously restricted.

Current income system is just a bunch of random numbers, and should not be taken into consideration at all when balancing things. Players should get maybe 20-30 per round (if not less), not the 70+ they are getting now. I'll change that for round 7 if I remember.

Point taken. Still, being able to make any deck mostly upped is still quite powerful, even if you would have a hard time getting it.

So your Mono-Upped deck is ok but mine can't be?

The difference is that you know what mono-deck he will be using, while you yourself will be able to build anything without any kind of limitations.

Anything.
No limitations.

You don't see the difference here?

Ninja'd.