Woe Alpha - Skill Feedback - Underworld

[Scaredgirl]

[TheIdioticIdiot]

*cough cough*
"Underground"?


what the phoenix is that?

[Nepycros]

Find a Weakness is a card-denial skill, as is Mage Hunter, Cyborg, Diversion, Champion of Water, and Champion of Light (isn't that the one that causes all >5 att creatures unable to be played?). Card-denial skills are, in my opinion, very very tricky to balance. Combining any 2 of them allows for someone to nullify a number of strategies. Find A Weakness is probably the 3rd best there is of these listed abilities (following Mage Hunter in 1st, and Champion of Light in 2nd). I would like to announce that this is speculatory, and must be tested in actual fieldwork, however, this is a hypothesis that holds ground. We'll have to be careful in how we incorporate any modifications, so we choose to need to do so.

[Kael Hate]

Find a Weakness is a card-denial skill, as is Mage Hunter, Cyborg, Diversion, Champion of Water, and Champion of Light (isn't that the one that causes all >5 att creatures unable to be played?). Card-denial skills are, in my opinion, very very tricky to balance. Combining any 2 of them allows for someone to nullify a number of strategies. Find A Weakness is probably the 3rd best there is of these listed abilities (following Mage Hunter in 1st, and Champion of Light in 2nd). I would like to announce that this is speculatory, and must be tested in actual fieldwork, however, this is a hypothesis that holds ground. We'll have to be careful in how we incorporate any modifications, so we choose to need to do so.

Blah blah blah,

Do you realise that all the skill points you put in this table mean an upgraded Quantum pillar?
Until the upgrades are something more than a pillar, why would you Invest more than the default points unless the skill was so overwhelmingly powerful it could offset all the points you lose to get it?

[TStar]

Basically what Kael says.  Upgraded "Other" cards are pretty much worthless.  As a Rainbow-based faction UW is better off investing skills into getting marks of other elements so they can play 2 upgraded cards of those elements and choose any mark they want, especially for to build PSNbows.  Investing points in UW skills is pretty useless, especially since at first glance the UW skill tree appears to be easily the weakest of all.

[TStar]

The Mark of Underworld may need to be revisited.  Unlike other element Marks, it does not allow an extra upgrade which is already limiting it compared to other elements.  The real issue is that instead of being a benefit to the UW player, it instead allows other players to dictate the battle terms by forcing the Mark the UW player will use.  Forcing a rainbow deck to play a certain Mark is a huge advantage to their opponent.  If UW had access to a larger income base, or some other form of income-boosting ability to be able to develop a larger variety of cards to account for this it might work, but coupling very limited income potential with a mechanism that allows your enemy to dictate the terms of battle is pretty rough.  It's difficult enough trying to build a deck without access to some of the strongest rainbow cards (they are rares) but the expenses involved in trying to prepare for multiple marks is simply prohibitive.  I feel this forces the UW player into a "salvager" role of having to fight countless battles to accumulate cards, while other elements have the choice of build through peaceful means of income-boosting skills and territorial income expansion.

Related to that, the lower portion of the UW skill tree may need to be revisited.  It seems to open the door for a less hack-and-slash method of gaining income and cards in trading and smuggling, but the way Alpha is playing out so far gives all players access to all non-rare cards.  This means trying to gain income in a "card smuggler" role isn't possible.  So again your only income is a trickle from your city and the need to kill anyone and everyone to gain cards to sell to build your vault.  I'm not sure if shoehorning UW into such an attack-only role is what was intended.

A question on Improved Trading.....since you can't enter a city or town where you have a negative reputation, that logically means you can't trade with the Merchants there.  How is it determined which faction the Merchant comes from?  Since the UW income is based on killing others currently, it seems likely that in time you could gain a negative reputation with all 13 factions.  Does this mean you would be barred from using Improved Trading?

One thing to consider may be an UW skill that allows using "Other" upgrades on different elements.  A player who wishes to invest heavily in the UW skills will be limited to using only upped "Other" cards, and while Tower Shields, Long Swords, and Quantum Towers are very nice they simply are no match for upped element cards.  Instead of forcing players to spend tons of skill points getting Marks and upgrades from every other element, why not allow them a chance to stay within their own tree and still field competitive decks?

[Scaredgirl]

The Mark of Underworld may need to be revisited.  Unlike other element Marks, it does not allow an extra upgrade which is already limiting it compared to other elements.  The real issue is that instead of being a benefit to the UW player, it instead allows other players to dictate the battle terms by forcing the Mark the UW player will use.  Forcing a rainbow deck to play a certain Mark is a huge advantage to their opponent.  If UW had access to a larger income base, or some other form of income-boosting ability to be able to develop a larger variety of cards to account for this it might work, but coupling very limited income potential with a mechanism that allows your enemy to dictate the terms of battle is pretty rough.  It's difficult enough trying to build a deck without access to some of the strongest rainbow cards (they are rares) but the expenses involved in trying to prepare for multiple marks is simply prohibitive.  I feel this forces the UW player into a "salvager" role of having to fight countless battles to accumulate cards, while other elements have the choice of build through peaceful means of income-boosting skills and territorial income expansion.

Related to that, the lower portion of the UW skill tree may need to be revisited.  It seems to open the door for a less hack-and-slash method of gaining income and cards in trading and smuggling, but the way Alpha is playing out so far gives all players access to all non-rare cards.  This means trying to gain income in a "card smuggler" role isn't possible.  So again your only income is a trickle from your city and the need to kill anyone and everyone to gain cards to sell to build your vault.  I'm not sure if shoehorning UW into such an attack-only role is what was intended.

A question on Improved Trading.....since you can't enter a city or town where you have a negative reputation, that logically means you can't trade with the Merchants there.  How is it determined which faction the Merchant comes from?  Since the UW income is based on killing others currently, it seems likely that in time you could gain a negative reputation with all 13 factions.  Does this mean you would be barred from using Improved Trading?

One thing to consider may be an UW skill that allows using "Other" upgrades on different elements.  A player who wishes to invest heavily in the UW skills will be limited to using only upped "Other" cards, and while Tower Shields, Long Swords, and Quantum Towers are very nice they simply are no match for upped element cards.  Instead of forcing players to spend tons of skill points getting Marks and upgrades from every other element, why not allow them a chance to stay within their own tree and still field competitive decks?

I personally don't see anything wrong with the Mark of Underworld. In fact, I think it's one of the best skills both theme-wise and mechanically.

Underworld is team 'Other'. When they fight in a neutral hex, they get an advantage of being able to use any mark. Think about it. Other players need to waste tons of Skill Points to get to use those Marks, but Team Underworld can pick any of the 12 Marks for free. Being able to use many different marks is no joke. It's a huge advantage really, because as the event goes forward, you will learn which player has which marks, and can use that information during deckbuilding.

Not sure what you mean with "allows your enemy to dictate the terms of battle", because that's not really what's happening. If you stand on a neutral hex, your opponents cannot Capture it. An Underworld player standing on a neutral hex, cannot be killed without letting him use any of the 12 marks.

But if the hex is owned by someone, that of course makes it more difficult for UW, unless the hex is empty, in which case they can just Capture it and make it neutral.

the way Alpha is playing out so far gives all players access to all non-rare cards

Yea but this is only Alpha. Trading will see changes.

'Improved Trading' will most likely let you trade with whoever. Theme-wise it happens by you having this elaborate trading network which enables you to trade from a distance and trade in places you are not welcome.

Question about UW and Skill Point related upped cards is a difficult one. Optimal solution would be if they would somehow be able to upgrade any card. This would however need to be nerfed somehow, maybe they could use 1 upgraded card for each two Skill Points spent on UW skill tree.

I'll have to think about it some more.

[Kael Hate]

I mentioned in chat a partially thought out idea.

Underworld Skill points working the same way the Mark does.
While in an unbiased hex you may upgrade any card.
While in a biased hex you may only use underworld skill points to upgrade Other cards or cards of the Element of the hex.

This promotes underworlds need to balance out the map rather than let everyone else fight over it.

[TStar]

I mentioned in chat a partially thought out idea.

Underworld Skill points working the same way the Mark does.
While in an unbiased hex you may upgrade any card.
While in a biased hex you may only use underworld skill points to upgrade Other cards or cards of the Element of the hex.

This promotes underworlds need to balance out the map rather than let everyone else fight over it.

I think that is a brilliant solution.  Thematically it makes sense since neutral hexes are "lawless" so UW players would have the greatest advantage there and greatest access to their upgraded cards), while in enemy-controlled hexes they would need to limit themselves to be able to get in and out of potentially hostile areas so would only take upgraded cards unlikely to garner suspicion.

[Scaredgirl]

I mentioned in chat a partially thought out idea.

Underworld Skill points working the same way the Mark does.
While in an unbiased hex you may upgrade any card.
While in a biased hex you may only use underworld skill points to upgrade Other cards or cards of the Element of the hex.

This promotes underworlds need to balance out the map rather than let everyone else fight over it.

Like i said in chat, I like the idea, but I'm a bit worried that it might make hex ownership the deciding factor of a battle.


Lets say I have spent 12 Skill Points in UW Skill Tree.

If I fight in a hex controlled by , I have to use Mark of and 12 upped cards. This limits my options dramatically, and it's easy for my opponent to guess what deck I will be using, especially since I've previously had to post those decks in "Battle Results" section.

But if I fight in a neutral hex, I can use any Mark and any 12 upped cards. That's a HUGE advantage.


This would lead to things like UW players always running away from a fight unless it happens on neutral soil, or UW players getting wiped out later in the game when all the hexes have ownership.

But maybe it works, I don't know. We can test it at some point.

I was also thinking about doing it the opposite way. When I'm in a hex, I can use any cards BUT cards. So I could use and upgrade any non-time cards, but couldn't use cards at all, not even the unupped ones. That would fit better mechanically imo, but it would be kind of weird seeing how the mark works.

If we have any other ideas, lets hear them.

[Kael Hate]

But maybe it works, I don't know. We can test it at some point.

Tstar likes it and I like it, can we run with it until a better suggestion or comes along?

Lets say I have spent 12 Skill Points in UW Skill Tree.

If I fight in a hex controlled by , I have to use Mark of and 12 upped cards. This limits my options dramatically, and it's easy for my opponent to guess what deck I will be using, especially since I've previously had to post those decks in "Battle Results" section.

As it currently stands, If I fight in a Time hex I my underwold mark shows time and I can only upgrade other cards. Where this would give me some option to upgrade at least something other than 12 Quantum pillars and a Shield. It has no negative to the current situation.

[Scaredgirl]

But maybe it works, I don't know. We can test it at some point.

Tstar likes it and I like it, can we run with it until a better suggestion or comes along?

Making changes to elemental rules based on what they players in those elements like, might not be the best way to go.

Also I'd like to have more than 24 hours of thought process before changing the rules. It's going to be very confusing if we keep changing the rules every time we get a better idea. There's no rush with this, so we should plan it carefully.

Lets say I have spent 12 Skill Points in UW Skill Tree.

If I fight in a hex controlled by , I have to use Mark of and 12 upped cards. This limits my options dramatically, and it's easy for my opponent to guess what deck I will be using, especially since I've previously had to post those decks in "Battle Results" section.

As it currently stands, If I fight in a Time hex I my underwold mark shows time and I can only upgrade other cards. Where this would give me some option to upgrade at least something other than 12 Quantum pillars and a Shield. It has no negative to the current situation.

The problem is the huge difference between the two situations. UW players would be 12 times more dangerous in neutral hexes, which brings all kinds of problems, some of which I mentioned earlier.

UW players in hex, having to use mark and having the option to use upped cards (or 'other') cards, sounds good to me. But I feel that they would get way too much freedoms in neutral hexes. If they get to use any mark and upgrade any cards, I think there should be some kind of other limitation. Otherwise UW will be the ultimate PvP team that steamrolls everyone else in 1vs1 combat.