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Offline CuCN

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115521#msg1115521
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2013, 06:16:22 am »
Independent is different from mutually exclusive. Independent means that one event happening does not affect the probability of the other event. Multiplying probabilities only works for independent events.
Mutually exclusive is when two events cannot occur at the same time. Two events cannot be independent if they are mutually exclusive (assuming that each event is possible on its own).
I was demonstrating that the events of drawing A and drawing B are not independent by giving an example of a situation in which they are mutually exclusive.

Now if we calculate the probability of a tower (20 copies) and SoB (6 copies) in the first 7 cards of a 60 card deck, ignoring mulligan:
Let A be the event of drawing a tower and B be the event of drawing SoB:
P(A)=1-(((60-7)!(60-20)!)/(60!(60-7-20)!))=1-((53!40!)/(60!33!))=95.17%
P(B)=1-(((60-7)!(60-6)!)/(60!(60-7-6)!))=1-((53!54!)/(60!47!))=54.14%
P(A∨B)=1-(((60-7)!(60-26)!)/(60!(60-7-26)!))=1-((53!34!)/(60!27!))=98.61%
P(A∧B)=P(A)+P(B)-P(A∨B)=50.71%

Offline Savage

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115821#msg1115821
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2013, 06:27:11 am »
ok, having established 50.71%, how does play into our extension? Because if you play the SoB, you get to draw a second card, assuming you draw a fire pillar and the SoB.
Again, we are looking for two cards of which we have 1 of each and they are not the same and having 20 pillars and 6 SoB adds 50.71% chance extesion to what element? add a 50.71% chance that the next draw is likely to happen?

Offline CuCN

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115822#msg1115822
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2013, 06:35:10 am »
Can you explain more clearly what value you are trying to calculate?

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115864#msg1115864
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2013, 02:10:35 pm »
Ooook, I'm glad to see you continued posting, but I don't think any progress has been made, has it?
Let's resume my studies a little bit, starting off by saying that I don't really remember everything I did about this.
This is my old post, quoting it all:
Spoiler for Hidden:
Ok, here's my version of the whole thing:
Considering your deck up here, let's say I want to calculate the probabilities of drawing AT LEAST 1 of each Mummy, SoR and Rewind, calling them, respectively M, S and R (yeah, they follow my standard names, too, lucky ^^).
How do we do this? First of all, the probabilities of something happening are FavorableSituations/TotalSituations (P=C'/C). Let's start calculating the Total Situations. To do so the formula is pretty easy and is like d!/((d-n)!*n!) where "d" is the number of cards in your deck and "n" the number of cards you draw (7, we're assuming we're always going first). Calculating this you obtain 2035800. For who may be asking, d! calculates the various combinations your deck may have. Dividing it by (d-n)! will let you calculate the various combinations your hand could have, where the order of the card matters. Dividing it back for n! makes it so that the order doesn't matter.
Now that we have C, let's go to C'. In case that's just one card, there are two ways which I like to call Reverse and Specific:
-Reverse is the clearest one, simply, you calculate the probabilities of that NOT happening, and then you invert them. Basically, you do 1-Z/C, where Z is the number of combinations in which you don't get the card you need. For one card (M), Z is simply (d-m)!/((d-n-m)!*n!), where "m" is the number of copies you have of M. This happens because you are calculating the combinations the deck may have without M. Doing so you'll obtain 346104. Calculating the whole 1-Z/C you obtain 0,8299911583, so about 83%, pretty giant, uh?
For one card, Reverse is probably the best you can use, but for more than one card, it isn't optimal. However, after researches, I found a way to calculate the probabilities of two cards keeping Reverse: to do so, you'll have to get C', the number of situations without neither M nor S. As you've seen, it is simply (d-m-s)!/((d-m-s-n)!*n!) with 31824 as result. With T-T' you obtain MS, the number of combinations with either M or S or even both. In this case the number is 2003976. Now simply calculate the number of hands without S like (d-s)!/((d-n-s)!*n!)), which is 346104. Now MS-S' will get you M', the number of hands with M but without S. M-M' will get you ms, which is the number of combinations in which you have both M and S.
However, with more than two card, this is not  possible unless another way is found.
-Specific is the longest one which requires a basic understanding of the formula to modify and adapt it to other situations, but can let you calculate pretty much all you may need. As always, the result P is given by C'/C. While C is calculated as before, what changes is C'. Using Specific, you'll have to manually calculate the situations in which you have exactly one M, two M, three M, 4 M, 5 M and 6 M and add them up. You do this via m(d-m)(d-m-1)(d-m-2)(d-m-3)(d-m-4)(d-m-5)+m(m-1)(d-m)(d-m-1)(d-m-2)(d-m-3)(d-m-4)+m(m-1)(m-2)(d-m)(d-m-1)(d-m-2)(d-m-3)+m(m-1)(m-2)(m-3)(d-m)(d-m-1)(d-m-2)+m(m-1)(m-2)(m-3)(m-4)(d-m)(d-m-1)+m(m-1)(m-2)(m-3)(m-4)(m-5)(d-m).
That's pretty long, isn't it? And consider that if it were 8 cards, you'd have to change alot once again, and what if you wanted to calculate SoBra? Deadly, you'd have to change pretty much everything. The good thing is that it probably isn't too hard to calculate more than one card, but I still am not sure on how to do that. For two cards, you write the formula above and subtract to it the same formula but substituting all of the "d" with "d-s".
If you try to do so with 3 cards, what you'll get is the number hands that have intersections between the cards you're studing. I have figured out another way, but that's even harder. You calculate MSR like we did before (calculate Z and do C-Z). Now you'll have to calculate MSR', which is the number of hands that have M, S and/or R, but never together, and then subtract it to MSR. To do so, you'll have to calculate all of the intersections like we did before with Reverse (you can do that with Specific, too, if you want to do so). You'll basically obtain the intersections between M and R, M and S and R and S. However, you've calculate MSR among those, and you did so 3 times. What we'll do then is calculate M, S and R singularly, sum them up and then subtract the intersections to it. Explaining what happened is pretty difficult, basically consider 3 circles, M, S and R. When they overlap, they create 3 spaces with just one layer (M', S' and R'), 3 spaces with two layers (M'S, M'R, R'S) and 1 space with three layers (C'). If you subtract the three intersections, you'll remove one layer from each of the spaces with two layers, and will remove all of the three layers from C'. You'll obtain MSR', the number of hands with M, R and/or S, but never with them all together. Now MSR-MSR' and you'll obtain.
I don't have much time to check this last one, so if someone were so kind to do so for me, I'd be more than happy. Compare your result with this, you should obtain 53.65%, not considering Mulligan, which will be implemented when we find the final efficient formula.

If I'm not wrong, what I did with the Specific, can be done with Reverse, too.

Reading this back actually looks like it's correct, unless I'm missing something. That method is usable for more than three cards, too. If we add mulligan it should be all right, shouldn't it?
I'd calculate it if I were on a PC. I will, though, ASAP.

As for the current question, I don't think it is needed to calculate SoBra:
1.You'll have to account for a quanta source, too;
2.It only swaps itself on first turn, if you really wanted to, not caring about the quanta source, you can simply not include it in the calculation, but, as I said, you'd have to account for a quanta source to make it useful.

Offline Savage

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115921#msg1115921
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2013, 06:12:45 pm »
that is what we did, considering the pillar is needed. The question is, what are the chances of drawing 2 certain cards, you have 1 of each in your deck, not the pillars or SoB, on the very first turn (assuming you go first).

Now, it is possible to draw another card like with precog and stuff, but my question is entails SoB. Now, assuming cards are upgraded, you only need 1 fire pillar and 1 SoB, and the chances of drawing those on the first turn, both, are about 50.71% chance.

Before SoB, we had a 5.8% chance of drawing both target cards (someone please explain this if this is wrong), but now we have an extra draw, 50.71% chance of this extra draw. That is where we are now

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115954#msg1115954
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2013, 08:56:20 pm »
Ok taking what CuCn did


So odds of drawing a 2 card combo with SoBr or Prec and the Pillar to fuel it in the mix would be:

to find P(A1), find P(B1), find (P(A1∨B1),P(A∧B) for 7 cards of your primary combination (We will call them A1.7, etc)
to find P(A1), find P(B1), find (P(A1∨B1),P(A∧B) for 8 cards of your primary combination (We will call them A1.8, etc)
then find P(A2), find P(B2), find (P(A2∨B2),P(A2∧B2) for 7 cards of your extra draw combination

Now from here, I think we just need to to compare between the two sets of odds

P = P(A1.8∧B1.8 ) * P(A2∧B2) + P(A1.8∧B1.8 ) * (1 - P(A2∧B2))
As long as Count(Target Combo Cards) <= Opening Hand - Count(Extra Draw Target Combo)

So to follow along we have in this thread
Deck Size = 60
Target Card for Combo with a count of 1  (A1)
Target(2) Card for Como with a count of 1 (B1)
Target Extra Draw Card with a count of 20 (A2)
Target(2) Extra Draw Card with a count of 6 (B2)
Initial Toss Win Starting hand of (7)

So start from here:

P(A1.7)=1-(((60-7)!(60-1)!)/(60!(60-7-1)!))
P(B1.7)=1-(((60-7)!(60-1)!)/(60!(60-7-1)!))
P(A1.8 )=1-(((60-8)!(60-1)!)/(60!(60-8-1)!))
P(B1.7)=1-(((60-8)!(60-1)!)/(60!(60-8-1)!))
P(A2.7)=1-(((60-7)!(60-20)!)/(60!(60-7-20)!))
P(B2.7)=1-(((60-7)!(60-6)!)/(60!(60-6-20)!))
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 09:17:14 pm by Keeps »

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115956#msg1115956
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2013, 09:07:31 pm »
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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115962#msg1115962
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2013, 09:18:18 pm »
I like the topic, my 80% understanding gets us along and cucn's 100% understand corrects me along the way.

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115964#msg1115964
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2013, 09:25:23 pm »
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Offline CuCN

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115969#msg1115969
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2013, 09:40:36 pm »
Let the two cards you want to draw be X and Y.

If X and Y both have 1 copy in a 60 card deck, the probability of drawing X and Y in the opening hand is
P(X)+P(Y)-P(X∨Y)
=(1-(53!59!)/(60!52!))+(1-(53!59!)/(60!52!))-(1-(53!58!)/(60!51!))
=7/60+7/60-196/885
=1.19%.

The other way to get X and Y is by having a tower (A) and SoB (B) in the opening hand, and also one of X or Y, and then drawing the other one using the SoB. The chance of drawing the correct card using the SoB is 1/53, because there are 53 cards left and 1 of them is correct. The probability of this scenario is (1/53)(P(A∧B∧((X∧¬Y)∨(¬X∧Y)))).
P(A∧B∧((X∧¬Y)∨(¬X∧Y)))
=P(A∧B∧¬X)+P(A∧B∧¬Y)-2P(A∧B∧¬X∧¬Y)
=P(¬X)P(A∧B|¬X)+P(¬Y)P(A∧B|¬Y)-2P(¬X∧¬Y)P(A∧B|¬X∧¬Y)
=P(¬X)(P(A|¬X)+P(B|¬X)-P(A∨B|¬X))+P(¬Y)(P(A|¬Y)+P(B|¬Y)-P(A∨B|¬Y))-2P(¬X∧¬Y)(P(A|¬X∧¬Y)+P(B|¬X∧¬Y)-P(A∨B|¬X∧¬Y))

The last expression looks nasty, but all of the probabilities in it are easy to calculate using the DHT formula:
P(¬X)=P(¬Y)=(53!59!)/(60!52!)=53/60
P(¬X∧¬Y)=(53!58!)/(60!51!)=(52*53)/(59*60)=689/885
P(A|¬X)=P(A|¬Y)=1-(52!39!)/(59!32!)
P(B|¬X)=P(B|¬Y)=1-(52!53!)/(59!46!)
P(A∨B|¬X)=P(A∨B|¬Y)=1-(52!33!)/(59!26!)
P(A|¬X∧¬Y)=1-(51!38!)/(58!31!)
P(B|¬X∧¬Y)=1-(51!52!)/(58!45!)
P(A∨B|¬X∧¬Y)=1-(51!32!)/(58!25!)

Substituting these in, the probability here is
2(53/60)((1-(52!39!)/(59!32!))+(1-(52!53!)/(59!46!))-(1-(52!33!)/(59!26!)))-2(689/885)((1-(51!38!)/(58!31!))+(1-(51!52!)/(58!45!))-(1-(51!32!)/(58!25!)))
=9.46%

Therefore the total probability is 1.19%+(1/53)9.46%=1.36%. (If you're interested in the exact value, it's 139,688,423/10,234,483,380.)

EDIT: changed values for only 1 copy of X and Y (previously was calculating based on 6 copies each of X and Y).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 05:58:48 am by CuCN »

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115971#msg1115971
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2013, 09:53:43 pm »
What wrong with using?
P = P(A1.8∧B1.8 ) * P(A2∧B2) + P(A1.8∧B1.8 ) * (1 - P(A2∧B2))

Offline CuCN

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Re: Probabilities and Combinations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=50769.msg1115972#msg1115972
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2013, 10:03:48 pm »
P((X and Y in top 8 cards) and (A and B in top 7 cards))+P((X and Y in top 7 cards) and not (A and B in top 7 cards)) should come out to the same value. However P((X and Y in top 8 cards) and (A and B in top 7 cards)) is not the same as P(X and Y in top 8 cards)*P(A and B in top 7 cards). It is hard to calculate P((X and Y in top 8 cards) and (A and B in top 7 cards)).

 

blarg: