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Offline LeodipTopic starter

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127276#msg1127276
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2014, 10:15:27 pm »
Done with the today amount in a few match.

Jump

But something what is irritating me: DisHole (6 SoFoc, 6 Otyurg, 4 Discord, 2 Black Hole/Nymph, 4 Overdrive + pillars/pends for example) is really counted to Healing (because of Discords, it's actually 4-12 per turn), to massive PC (SoFocs destroy everything), to Denial (really everything, pillars too and the they become Black Hole), to CC (6 otyurg+dexterity and 4 Overdrive can act like that too) and by composition it could be rush too O.o Does this not need an own category?
Nope, it doesn't need its own category because we'll need to let players who have decks fragile to denial, healing, CC and PC know that there are tons of those around. Or, if anything, it'll need both its own category AND for data to be accounted in said categories. May put it if asked by other users too, but I'm currently negative on that.

Offline Atom_heart

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127404#msg1127404
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2014, 08:19:24 pm »
Let me know if you can see both sheets.

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Offline LeodipTopic starter

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127406#msg1127406
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2014, 08:40:51 pm »
Let me know if you can see both sheets.

Link
Yay, that's nice data, perfectly compiled (I think), too. However, I really think Crusader isn't a problem and for that worthy of being recorded.

Also, given that this is just the Spreadsheet testing, don't force yourself playing two leagues. Unless you really want to because you decided to shift leagues halfway, it's unneeded.
Thanks for the hard work.

Offline Zergva

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127419#msg1127419
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2014, 09:15:08 pm »
Done for today: Jump

Offline LeodipTopic starter

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127422#msg1127422
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2014, 09:25:15 pm »
Done for today: Jump
Fragmentation of data looks flawless once again and, while I appreciate you're trying to put in as many cards as possible, we'll have to streamline that because it'll have to be the same for all of the players. In the whiletime, if you do tests like this and think that one of the extra cards you're recording should be officially recorded, just ask in here and I'll be sure to answer you.

Offline Zergva

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127424#msg1127424
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2014, 10:23:22 pm »
Fragmentation of data looks flawless once again and, while I appreciate you're trying to put in as many cards as possible, we'll have to streamline that because it'll have to be the same for all of the players. In the whiletime, if you do tests like this and think that one of the extra cards you're recording should be officially recorded, just ask in here and I'll be sure to answer you.

Reduced the amount of needless data. And so:

1, Some sort of reusable CC-s are counted (Otyurg, Arctic squid) and others are not (Maxwell, Mind flayer (only counted, when there was enough quanta to use ability multiple times), Owl's eye).

2, EQ vs Poseidon (same with Mind flayer) and Steal vs. Deflagration.

3, SoGrad vs Empathic bond.

4, And mass CC's.

vs means one of them is counted, while the other is not and I don't know why.
From 1-4 which is important enough to be taken in the database and which could been deleted? (I don't delete until I know I should).
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 10:25:20 pm by Zergva »

Offline Atom_heart

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127425#msg1127425
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2014, 10:28:48 pm »
Spoiler for quotes:
Let me know if you can see both sheets.

Link
Yay, that's nice data, perfectly compiled (I think), too. However, I really think Crusader isn't a problem and for that worthy of being recorded.

Also, given that this is just the Spreadsheet testing, don't force yourself playing two leagues. Unless you really want to because you decided to shift leagues halfway, it's unneeded.
Thanks for the hard work.

Done for today: Jump
Fragmentation of data looks flawless once again and, while I appreciate you're trying to put in as many cards as possible, we'll have to streamline that because it'll have to be the same for all of the players. In the whiletime, if you do tests like this and think that one of the extra cards you're recording should be officially recorded, just ask in here and I'll be sure to answer you.
I agree on what you said about the crusader. Still, I think Fractal and SoBr should be on the template. I'm not sure about poison and GotP, because they are implied in deck styles.
Also ¿What style is a deck that relies on growth of creatures?

Offline LeodipTopic starter

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127427#msg1127427
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2014, 10:49:18 pm »
Fragmentation of data looks flawless once again and, while I appreciate you're trying to put in as many cards as possible, we'll have to streamline that because it'll have to be the same for all of the players. In the whiletime, if you do tests like this and think that one of the extra cards you're recording should be officially recorded, just ask in here and I'll be sure to answer you.

Reduced the amount of needless data. And so:

1, Some sort of reusable CC-s are counted (Otyurg, Arctic squid) and others are not (Maxwell, Mind flayer (only counted, when there was enough quanta to use ability multiple times), Owl's eye).

2, EQ vs Poseidon (same with Mind flayer) and Steal vs. Deflagration.

3, SoGrad vs Empathic bond.

4, And mass CC's.

vs means one of them is counted, while the other is not and I don't know why.
From 1-4 which is important enough to be taken in the database and which could been deleted? (I don't delete until I know I should).
We'll have to start stating that the recorded cards are getting recorded for a special reason, and not just because they have a kind of skill. We'll see this in a moment:
1.Otyugh can possibly indicate Swallow, if anything I'd be prone to removing this and simply record this via "Creature Control". Arctic Squid isn't really CC, although it's accounted as such, and it can mostly be solved via Epinephrine. We'll want players to know that they can solve this kind of problems with Epinephrine or that they can play Catatitans and hope in a freeze or stuff on it. I'm still undecided on Maxwell, generally, decks who fail against Maxwell are the same who fail against other CC, this means it isn't relevant which CC killed it. As for Mind Flayer, thanks for making me notice, that's another thing to add. You should notice I put Lobotomizer in Aether, this means I'd want to know whether my cards are lobotomized or not.
2.Poseidon isn't generally used, in the arena, dexterity+EQ is generally just fine. If anything, I may ask to add 1 to EQ whenever your opponent has an usable Poseidon, but I wouldn't want to add another card.
3.Empathic Bond is generally included in Healing, being realistic, no one will play RoF to kill a field of creatures who power opponent's Empathic Bond. SoG, on the other side, is a standalone card, meaning that you could even just spam it here and there. Also, while Empathic Bonds generally indicate a Life deck or something with fractals or mitosis, SoGs generally indicate a stall, that's why knowing that is here and now needed. If anything, I'd remove it, but some little more data cannot hurt.
4.Don't think I got this point. I have a AoE in Deck's Traits, but you had to add RoF and Plague (still forgetting Thunderstorm, by the way), IMHO, needlessly.

@Atom, I don't know about Fractal and SoBr. If it were you, knowing that the current meta has a lot of fractals and a lot of SoBras, what would you do? I don't think anything can be done, if not defending against pestal (which is already covered in Denial) or against Rushes (which is already covered in, guess what, rushes). As for GotP and Poison, that's it, they're covered in the traits, meaning you won't need to cover them once again.
As for the growth, that's generally a stall-breaker. Stalls usually focus on waiting long enough till your opponent decks out. If you wait that much, a growth deck will just out-damage your healing. All of the growth creatures, aside from Fire Spirit, can completely defend against Fire Shield, which is one of Stall's best friends. Also, SoPas generally indicate a Stall-Breaker, too.

Offline Zergva

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127431#msg1127431
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2014, 11:10:59 pm »
Thanks for the answers, I think now I get it (kay I'm a kinda slow-minded). Now I'm on phone, but tomorrow I clear it (and record on the Febr. 25 sheet).

Offline Keolino

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127473#msg1127473
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2014, 07:37:44 am »
I don't know about Fractal and SoBr. If it were you, knowing that the current meta has a lot of fractals and a lot of SoBras, what would you do? I don't think anything can be done, if not defending against pestal (which is already covered in Denial) or against Rushes (which is already covered in, guess what, rushes). As for GotP and Poison, that's it, they're covered in the traits, meaning you won't need to cover them once again.

Against Fractal: Neurotoxin, but there aren't many (any?) good decks around. But would be probably useful to know so you can play a hand-lock deck. Adding one or two nightmares to your rainbow, or playing ghostmare, or using some lovely silence once your opponent hits 9/10 aether quanta and have some leftover handspace. And probably Pestal gets more viable, when your opponent has to wait for heavy quanta for fractal. Further, some heavy AoE damage spells may be used, or some shield which reduces 2 or more damage is effective as well. (Well, shields and AoE helps against any creature spam, if it weren't for SoPa)

Against SoBr, Pestal. They really love those extra cards to get things running real fast. Further, the opponent can't play the cards he drew from SoBr if he doesn't have the quanta for them. Other things, Nightmares are a kind of SoBr-blocker, some fractal decks get less viable (mostly if they don't have many quanta sources), and SN-rainbows get a boost from SoBr like no other deck because they can play the cards as fast as a RNG-loved cremation deck.

Hmm... cremation... May that card be added? Don't really now if it is used often enough in gold/platin.
What's the speed of dark?

Offline LeodipTopic starter

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127476#msg1127476
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2014, 08:43:20 am »
I don't know about Fractal and SoBr. If it were you, knowing that the current meta has a lot of fractals and a lot of SoBras, what would you do? I don't think anything can be done, if not defending against pestal (which is already covered in Denial) or against Rushes (which is already covered in, guess what, rushes). As for GotP and Poison, that's it, they're covered in the traits, meaning you won't need to cover them once again.

Against Fractal: Neurotoxin, but there aren't many (any?) good decks around. But would be probably useful to know so you can play a hand-lock deck. Adding one or two nightmares to your rainbow, or playing ghostmare, or using some lovely silence once your opponent hits 9/10 aether quanta and have some leftover handspace. And probably Pestal gets more viable, when your opponent has to wait for heavy quanta for fractal. Further, some heavy AoE damage spells may be used, or some shield which reduces 2 or more damage is effective as well. (Well, shields and AoE helps against any creature spam, if it weren't for SoPa)

Against SoBr, Pestal. They really love those extra cards to get things running real fast. Further, the opponent can't play the cards he drew from SoBr if he doesn't have the quanta for them. Other things, Nightmares are a kind of SoBr-blocker, some fractal decks get less viable (mostly if they don't have many quanta sources), and SN-rainbows get a boost from SoBr like no other deck because they can play the cards as fast as a RNG-loved cremation deck.

Hmm... cremation... May that card be added? Don't really now if it is used often enough in gold/platin.
Against Fractal: I don't think it generally matters, if you have a hand-lock and you manage to get it running there isn't much to do for the hand-locked deck. Also, using heavy AoE isn't recommended, because you'll have tons of dead draws against other decks, and there are quite a couple which can totally ignore RoF, for example. I still don't think it's needed

Against SoBra: SoBra is just a support card, played in 3/4 copies due to dexterity which gives speed to both, it's not a card important enough to record, IMHO.

For Cremation, I think that could be added, although the really low use in Higher Arena. What do you (players) think? Should I add it? (remember that Nova and Supernova have been added because they're extremely fragile against BH, and mostly is this card, too)

Offline Atom_heart

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Re: Arena's Metagame Monitoring Project (AMMP) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53601.msg1127499#msg1127499
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2014, 02:37:05 pm »
As for the growth, that's generally a stall-breaker. Stalls usually focus on waiting long enough till your opponent decks out. If you wait that much, a growth deck will just out-damage your healing. All of the growth creatures, aside from Fire Spirit, can completely defend against Fire Shield, which is one of Stall's best friends. Also, SoPas generally indicate a Stall-Breaker, too.

¿Could Stall-breaker be added as a trait then?

 

anything
blarg: