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Offline CuCN

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126766#msg1126766
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2014, 05:15:41 am »
I should make it clear that I am absolutely fine with making an assumption about TTL, but we must be aware that we make it and what effects it has. There is a fundamental difference between TTW and TTL, which is that you can't win early if you're obviously going to win, while you can lose early (and save time) if you're obviously going to lose. This does, in fact, make TTL more subjective than TTW.

Ideally, there would be some objective criteria on when to quit a game, and testers would be required to record TTL. However, the only objective criteria (e.g. no possible sequence of draws that would win the game) are considerably longer than when someone using the deck to farm would quit. This would lower the FGei and make skip lists longer than they should be.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 05:19:44 am by CuCN »

Offline the dictatorTopic starter

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126798#msg1126798
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2014, 01:40:32 pm »
I should make it clear that I am absolutely fine with making an assumption about TTL, but we must be aware that we make it and what effects it has. There is a fundamental difference between TTW and TTL, which is that you can't win early if you're obviously going to win, while you can lose early (and save time) if you're obviously going to lose. This does, in fact, make TTL more subjective than TTW.

Ideally, there would be some objective criteria on when to quit a game, and testers would be required to record TTL. However, the only objective criteria (e.g. no possible sequence of draws that would win the game) are considerably longer than when someone using the deck to farm would quit. This would lower the FGei and make skip lists longer than they should be.

The two bolded parts are the keypoints in my reasoning. Ideally TTL would be factored into the equation, but in such a way, that is both objectively measured AND closely resembles the behavior of actual players. Sadly, these two requirements are contradicting each other, so the question is what option or compromise to pick.

That said, Jangoo got me an idea: While I'm currently using TTL = 100% TTW, I could pool all data from all decks together, and use them to get a more accurate percentage. Because this pools all decks and playstyles together to get 1 number, there is no subjectivity between the comparing of the different decks, since they all use the same percentage. And because everything is pooled together, we should get the different playstyles  mixed in a way accurately resembling actual players (hopefully).

That brings up 1 new question: should I make tracking turns to lose mandatory or keep it voluntarily.
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Offline Leodip

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126799#msg1126799
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2014, 01:42:17 pm »
I figured I should write my opinion, too.
Although I've always been a TTF lover [(TotalTTW+TotalTTL)/TotalGamesPlayed] and I'll always prefer that option when possible, I totally see why TD and CG went ahead not considering TTL (and thus TTF) anywhere.
Let's first say that I happen to remember that someone (Pella, maybe) said that FGei (it was back when it was called FGei, that's for sure) should be more about how much you win in an hour if you play the deck the best way possible. However, in order to reduce bias due to bad hands and stuff like that, a great number of games is also needed. Having a veteran (of that specific deck, some decks need someone who really knows how that works, see the Brave Malignant Ball that Could) play tons of games (which should be around 10 per God) without using the trainer (due to God's personal behaviour, although even with the Trainer it wouldn't be much less stressful) and on top of that making him/her take stats is just unreasonable. This is mostly seen when it comes to decks with a not-so-good UEI, because the player is even less interested in playing it.
This is when TTW vs. TTF kicks in. If it's not possible for a player to play that many games, having more players may just be as good. Sure, we'll be dropping the thing about using the deck the best way possible, but this would represent an average UEI with that deck. If you're a better player you may get a better UEI and win more, no complaints here. If you are under the average, no complaints here, you would have gotten a worse UEI anyway (and the gap would have been even bigger if it compared to a veteran).
However, now that we've dropped the best UEI, we'll have to try and remove bias due to multiple players playing the same deck. That's done via removing TTL. TTL is a nice thing to keep track of because it gets you TTF, which is a better way to calculate your UEI. Given that TTL is generally lower than TTW (not true for all of the decks, some of the times FG simply wins because of extra healing when he should have lost), this would rise the UEI. Removing TTL, though, means removing the subjectivity due to early dropping because of a bad hand or a bad turn of events (Decay could get a Fractal you didn't expect and completely quanta-lock you). This is why it's usually better to remove TTL.
However many players may say "well, there's subjectivity here and there, too, how about that?". We cannot possibly solve anything. The only way to remove the subjectivity (although still is subjective) is by making a veteran play and we're back to the starting point.
So, yeah, we're just trying to make it less worse.
TTL is, however, a nice stat to keep. If you don't mind adding that data, you can keep it for yourself and calculate your personal UEI with the deck, just for the sake of knowing. Remember not to include it in the data.
What's more, let me remind you what UEI stands for: Unified Efficiency Index. It's Unified what matters, we should really try not to differentiate from the UEI used for the various AIs and Arena. If a change happens here it has to be done to UEI itself, too.


TL;DR: TTW is the way to go due to subjectivity and stuff. You can keep track of TTL in order to get a PERSONAL UEI of the deck you're playing.


Hope this solved many issues and gave some more explanations, although I came late.

Offline eaglgenes101

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126881#msg1126881
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2014, 11:53:35 pm »
Maybe this: Instead of pooling stats together, each FG-tester combo has its own UEI and time per game. The best of these for each god is put together and used for FGei calculation. If a playtest lacks a stat, it is assigned estimates for them based on other playtests.

This should reduce bias from different playing styles and different recording habits.
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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126914#msg1126914
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2014, 07:25:02 am »
Maybe this: Instead of pooling stats together, each FG-tester combo has its own UEI and time per game. The best of these for each god is put together and used for FGei calculation. If a playtest lacks a stat, it is assigned estimates for them based on other playtests.

This should reduce bias from different playing styles and different recording habits.

Well, we don't have enough testers for nice things like that...

By the way, pdials-34 cards currently 60 games, Firecell currently 40 games. Since I started those way before the discussion with TTL started, those won't have TTL jet (since it would mix up my nice little 100 game-boxes in excel)

I will probably go with that one next (the first FG farmer that I used):
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7gq 7gv 7hi 7hi 7hi 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7k2 7k4 7k4 7k6 7k6 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 808 808 808 808 808 808 80i 80i 80i 8pp

Also, how well do you guys think that a deck like that would work against FG (Stalling is fine, of course, the question is about the amount of CC the FGs have) (or has anybody ever tested it already?):
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710 710 710 710 710 710 71a 71a 71a 71a 71a 71a 71u 71u 71u 71u 71u 71u 72i 72i 72i 7km 7km 7km 7km 7n2 7n2 7n2 7n2 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 8pq
What's the speed of dark?

Offline Faro

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126926#msg1126926
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2014, 11:07:24 am »
@the dictator : why not Beat the Bug ? :(

Offline the dictatorTopic starter

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126939#msg1126939
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2014, 04:26:35 pm »
@the dictator : why not Beat the Bug ? :(

Go take some stats if you feel it should be in the list, it simply wasn't added yet because there is no valid data to be added.
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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126944#msg1126944
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2014, 06:07:42 pm »
Also, how well do you guys think that a deck like that would work against FG (Stalling is fine, of course, the question is about the amount of CC the FGs have) (or has anybody ever tested it already?):
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710 710 710 710 710 710 71a 71a 71a 71a 71a 71a 71u 71u 71u 71u 71u 71u 72i 72i 72i 7km 7km 7km 7km 7n2 7n2 7n2 7n2 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 7q9 8pq
I'd think it's not going to be worth it. Way to susceptible to derail the core gameplay just to find yourself CCed all the time anyways.

I found this to be most effective PD-variant: No extra weight. Quantum shortage just doesnt happen. Early Arsenic. What more could you ask for? ... SoDs are overrated in this deck anyways.  ;)
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Offline Keolino

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126946#msg1126946
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2014, 06:21:09 pm »
I found this to be most effective PD-variant: No extra weight. Quantum shortage just doesnt happen. Early Arsenic. What more could you ask for? ... SoDs are overrated in this deck anyways.  ;)
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This deck of yours, with only 31 cards, isn't as capable of attacking over the first miracle, dealing 200 damage a second time. (Which is useful against Paradox, and Morte) Instead, it is more consistent. I wouldn't be able to tell if 30-31 or 34-35 cards are actually better, since the difference isn't great.
What's the speed of dark?

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126948#msg1126948
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2014, 06:30:11 pm »
Also, I was wondering, is there some kind of speed poison (well, maybe not speed, but yet, with Chrysaora and stuff) for FGs? Maybe running the Water part alone from the mark and get the usual stalling engine with SoSacs and maybe Sundials would be a good choice in order to overcome miracle. I don't know, though, how well it'd befare against CC, I only know that, most likely, it's better to keep the Chrysaoras unupped.

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126955#msg1126955
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2014, 07:24:08 pm »
Also, I was wondering, is there some kind of speed poison (well, maybe not speed, but yet, with Chrysaora and stuff) for FGs? Maybe running the Water part alone from the mark and get the usual stalling engine with SoSacs and maybe Sundials would be a good choice in order to overcome miracle. I don't know, though, how well it'd befare against CC, I only know that, most likely, it's better to keep the Chrysaoras unupped.

Something like this?
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Offline Leodip

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Re: [1.32] False Gods Stats Thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53573.msg1126956#msg1126956
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2014, 07:37:39 pm »
Also, I was wondering, is there some kind of speed poison (well, maybe not speed, but yet, with Chrysaora and stuff) for FGs? Maybe running the Water part alone from the mark and get the usual stalling engine with SoSacs and maybe Sundials would be a good choice in order to overcome miracle. I don't know, though, how well it'd befare against CC, I only know that, most likely, it's better to keep the Chrysaoras unupped.

Something like this?
I actually planned on using Chrys' skill more than that. As a general rule,if it isn't appreciated that they get destroyed, it's probably what I was looking for.

 

anything
blarg: