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Xiahou Dun

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Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24654#msg24654
« on: February 09, 2010, 10:50:52 pm »
With the introduction of The Oracle letting people know who they are going to face next False Gods can sometimes  reasonably be taken on prematurely by countering rather then having access to an arsenal of upgraded Spiky Death. Of course some are just monsters that are going to be tough to take down no matter how prepared you are but we won't be trying if we don't know what's coming.

This thread will not be giving concrete exact decks to be copied as much of it will have an emphasis on working with what you already have and trying to buy as little as possible to take them down. Many cards will do the same job in their own way. If we need to slow down heavy hitters we can suggest Procrastination or Ice Shield or Reverse Time or a few Freezes so that anyone is more likely to be able to make the deck. Feel free to post what you have and I can give specifics on a couple of cards to add or remove to help the deck.

This is far from just "My Guide" I will organise the first post but this is an open thread. Anyone is welcome to give their own suggestions or changes to what's already up there. I fully encourage and will greatly support anyone trying to contribute.

The Gods will not really be done in a particular order so if you're a new player and The Oracle has given you a god that you will be facing feel free to request we go over them next for you.

The first god I post is simply the first god that The Oracle gave me.

Incarnate
Assuming the information on the Elements Wiki is correct this is Incarnate's deck.

The first thing to do is analyse his deck. That sounds more clever of me then it is, Incarnate is very simple.

First thing I notice is that he's packing 8 of both Retrovirus'(Retrovirii?) and Bloodsucker's. These can kill stuff fast, and by stuff I mean your creatures, this is however his ONLY means of creature killing . You can deal with this in a couple of ways:

Play immaterial creatures either ready made or quinted.
If you've been using Aether either as a primary or maybe even secondary element you've probably got one of those fancy pants decks stuffed with Phase Dragons and or Immortals or at least some Quintessences for the secondaries. Incarnate can do nothing to get rid of these however they are expensive to play and so you can't throw out a ton of them so Bone Wall can slow them considerably. Bring immaterial creatures plus a means to get rid of Bone wall fast and you've got a good start already.

How about using Aether and a small amount of Life cards? Use a few Cockatrice or Horned Frog and Adrenaline>Parallel Universe>Quintessence to get you started huh? Cockatrice bring an extra 1|1 for just a price of 27 rather then 26 but they end up doing less damage when Adrenalined so the Frogs with damage and the lower casting costs are the better choice. They're mainly there for Bone Wall destruction though so if you have Cockatrice already they'll do just fine. With the Immortal approach he can't replenish his Bonewall easily by killing your creatures. He will however get a lot of creatures out and may be able to deal enough damage to kill you first with the health advantage. But hey! Dimensional Shields. He has no Permanent control whatsoever so you can buy your souped up phased out frogs or birdies more then enough time to dismantle his Health bar.

Neutralise his Retro's and Bloodsucker's.
There's a lot of them but it is all about gaining control. He won't be able to use their ability on the turn that he plays them. If you can give them only one turn to live they're out of there. A popular tactic for this would usually be Otyugh and they're fantastic. But these cards only have 1 health (2 in an Eclipse) and so Scarabs are still excellent for the task. And at less then half the price of Otyugh and also costing only 2 Time to throw out they an excellent replacement. (If you aren't using a deck heavy in Gravity it's much easier to find simply the 1 Gravity per Devour then if you had to use it to produce the Devouring creatures too, you may end up in the situation where after playing multiple Otyugh you can't eat with them until a couple of turns later)

If you can get out 3 Scarabs or so without them being killed then you should easily be able to munch up anything that comes their way on turn 1 so it won't get to use it's ability to kill them. Hold the Scarabs in your hand until you can rush a few out rather then playing them as soon as they are drawn. The added benefit is that when Bloodsuckers and Retro's aren't being played you can eat Vampires as they'll only have 3-4 and deal with another part of his deck.

His Graveyards however will grow massively from this strategy. I reccomend eating as a plan only if you have accress to something like Rain of Fire to wipe the board of Skeletons after you fill it from killing his creatures and then know exactly when you should and shouldn't eat. Otherwise by killing his creatures to protect yours you only serve to fulfill his goal of pumping out skeleton legions for him and saving your own creatures becomes a moot point.

You don't have to kill something to neutralise it however. The Retro's and the Bloodsuckers are only a threat because of their abilities Mind Flayers could be used to Lobotomise them. They could also Lobotomise the Vampires too.

The next thing his Deck brings to the table is a ton of Graveyards and Bone Walls. There are 10 and 8 respectively which is a lot. It can be very hard to deal with them all however I believe I may have stumbled upon something. Pulverizer could have dealt with them but being a Rare that's out of the discussion for this thread.

I thought about Deflagrations and Steals combined to deal with his Permanents. But what if you steal 2 or 3 Graveyards for yourself, wat for him to throw up some more then Rain of Fire to clear his field and fill both of your areas with Skeletons. Throw down a few empathic bonds either 4 or 2 and make sure you kill his Eclipse cards. Now you both have a field full of Skeletons but you're healing about 2 damage for every skeleton you have and he's left with the same amount of skeletons as you and they only do about 2 damage each. It's a total lockdown he can't play anymore creatures and the ones he has left are doing nothing. The only source of damage remaining is his Vampire Dagger which you can easily remove. This is a risky and odd build to set up though and probably not too consistent. You could also use shields to reduce his Skeletons damage so you can survive while you're building up Bonds.

Honestly the best way to deal with the Graveyards is probably just to leave them and not let anything die.

Finally he brings 12 Vampires.

With 6 damage when an eclipse is out they are his hardest hitting creatures and also the source of his healing. They are perhaps the biggest thing you need to deal with.

My proposed solution is thus. Antimatter. Antimattered Vampires heal you for 6 and drain 6 from him. You antimatter 6 Vampires and they either are a massive help to you or they simply cancel out the other 6 Vampires so fully 12 of his creatures do NOTHING AT ALL.

Whoa whoa whoa I hear you say. Antimatter, Quintessence, Adrenaline, this doesn't sound cheap at all! You're not supposed to buy everything but Water can get a couple of the tricks in at once. Nymphs Tears costing just 62 each. Nymph's Tears and Pillars costing 6 each allows me to field recyclable constant use Antimatter, Quintessence, Adrenaline and much much more on a budget. The tears can allow you to get a few Nymphs in the game of whatever elements you happen to be using at the moment. Get a Turquoise Nymph out safe and you can use it to protect the others so you don't need quints and such. It is not the perfect strategy for defeating Incarnate. but it is cheap...Very very cheap.

To recap.

"He can only play Vampires and Retro/Sucker. Antimattering the Vamps is one way to deal with them and Aether can use either Immortal Creatures or Lobotomise to take care of the Retro/Sucker or you can just ignore them if you're not using Cratures. From there it's just a case of outdamagine a few 1|1 and 3|1 creatures. Adrenaline can help you rip down Bone Walls if they are slowing you down too much."

More to come. I'll add anything new suggested or discovered by me to any of the Gods as I go.



PuppyChow

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Re: Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24682#msg24682
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 11:47:20 pm »
The problem with your strategy is that you have 3-4 different strategies, all needing lots of different cards and quantum. That's pretty hard to make a deck out of. If I was playing incarnate unupped and no rares, this is what I would run:
4x steal
4x oty
4x quint
4x phase shield
3x bone wall
3x rain of fire
3x hourglass
16x quantum pillars
Mark of Aether
(Steal the graveyards, rain of fire if necessary, bone wall before a fire storm, phase shield if you need to stall. Since your board would fill up very fast, you don't need to worry about the bone walls.)

About the whole cockatrice vs horned frog: horned frog does more damage after being adrenalined, so it would be the all around better choice. And health doesn't matter if you're going to quint them.

Oh, and playing a single oty is much easier than playing 3 scarabs. Especially because you only need to quint a single creature (it'd be easy for incarnate to kill a 2/1 creature, since you can't start eating right away).

Other than that, your strategies are generally good, but you're overthinking it.

Thakog

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Re: Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24712#msg24712
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2010, 01:03:56 am »
*IF* you have a pulv or two, I could see earth gravity working well. If you can get rid of the eclipses and lay out a protected diamond shield (that's the unupped one, right?) then he wouldn't be that hard.  Alternatively, an earth fire lava golem deck could do the same thing with explosions.

Jumbalumba

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Re: Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24716#msg24716
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2010, 01:15:08 am »
What's with all the thinking? Mono aether unupgraded has always beaten Incarnate. You don't even need lobo. It's probably not 100% win because you could have bad draws but it's close enough.

You don't want to kill Incarnate's creatures because it could mean feeding Bone Wall and, while you could play a Bone Wall yourself, Incarnate's Graveyards would mean your Bone Wall will fall down faster than its.

Anyways Aether wins hands down because:
    Immortal creatures means Retrovirus and Bloodsucker are relatively harmlessDimensional Shield means no more damage from its creatures and no more healing for Incarnate from its VampiresImmortal creatures not dying means constant pressure on its Bone Walls which it cannot keep up sustainablyIf you have Lobotomizer, you can use its ability to stop Retrovirus from dying and feeding Bone Wall. It also takes away the Vampire ability but you really shouldn't be getting hit towards the end anyway so that doesn't matter.

Xiahou Dun

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Re: Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24723#msg24723
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2010, 01:24:53 am »
The problem with your strategy is that you have 3-4 different strategies, all needing lots of different cards and quantum. That's pretty hard to make a deck out of.
That's because I'm not making one deck. You're entirely correct but are kinda missing the point of the thread. Rather then making one single deck and saying "Use this it would do great on this FG" I'm trying to give a general thread based on looking at a False God and then looking at your current cards and seeing what you have. It's not finished but it's set to be a place to look at and see how you can cater what you already have against him with as few card buys and additions as possible. The strategies for different quantums are there for a very specific reason so that if I had a mostly Water deck I should pick up the few Water cards mentioned and so on for other elements.

You seem to have got the impression that the whole post was on what to put in one single deck against Incarnate. An Entropy deck should try the Antimatter trick, for Aether's I suggested grabbing a Horned Frog or Two and Adrenaline Quinting them etc. Do you see what I was getting at now?

If you present somebody with this.

If I was playing incarnate unupped and no rares, this is what I would run:
4x steal
4x oty
4x quint
4x phase shield
3x bone wall
3x rain of fire
3x hourglass
16x quantum pillars
Mark of Aether
(Steal the graveyards, rain of fire if necessary, bone wall before a fire storm, phase shield if you need to stall. Since your board would fill up very fast, you don't need to worry about the bone walls.)
Then you are going to need to present a new player with not much money or cards under their belt such a huge list of cards to have to buy, not to mention a probable metamorphasis that by the end of it beating Incarnate would have taken more grind then it was probably worth for the gold and perhaps 1 card if they're lucky. The thread is supposed to be about a player working their way up the ladder of the game seeing a FG come up on their Oracle and picking up a couple of cheap cards to be useful to take on that fight and then getting back to working up to the point where they can afford to build a full deck to set them in good stead for the later game.

About the whole cockatrice vs horned frog: horned frog does more damage after being adrenalined, so it would be the all around better choice. And health doesn't matter if you're going to quint them.
Then you should definately go with the Frogs.

Oh, and playing a single oty is much easier than playing 3 scarabs. Especially because you only need to quint a single creature (it'd be easy for incarnate to kill a 2/1 creature, since you can't start eating right away).
With the Scarabs I was talking about if you weren't using Quint him having just one Retro left at the end of the turn could mean the death of all your Devour creatures so having a large force of Scarabs that you hold then play out in 1 turn after you've cleared the way for them could help you. Then even if he plays several Retro and Bloodsuckers in one turn you can get them all while playing lots of Oty is less convenient price wise. It's much easier for someone to afford a bunch of Scarabs then Otyugh. You wouldn't ever be putting down a 2|1 Scarab.

It definately looks way overthought if you take it to be one cohesive idea.

Quote from: Thakog
*IF* you have a pulv or two, I could see earth gravity working well. If you can get rid of the eclipses and lay out a protected diamond shield (that's the unupped one, right?) then he wouldn't be that hard.  Alternatively, an earth fire lava golem deck could do the same thing with explosions.
I already stated in the first post something about Pulv being ok for destroying his permanents but that I wasn't going to suggest it due to the nature of the thread. It's too hard to obtain. You can't really get rid of the eclipses with explosions unfortunately as he has 8 of them.

Quote from: Jumbalumba
What's with all the thinking? Mono aether unupgraded has always beaten Incarnate. You don't even need lobo. It's probably not 100% win because you could have bad draws but it's close enough.
The only addition to regular Mono Aether I suggested was a couple of Life cards so you could Adrenaline some creatures and then Quint them so you can tear down Bone Walls much quicker. Unless you had a lot of Dimensional Shields on the side he may simply play a few Bone Walls to stop your damage for a couple turns while his Vampires heal back a significant portion of his health and the 200 Health to your 100 and the fact that both of you are mainly just doing damage and not really protected means he will win out in the end enough. I'd take 12 Vampires giving 6 damage and Health over 6 Phase Dragons dealing 8.

Jumbalumba

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Re: Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24729#msg24729
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2010, 01:40:21 am »
You don't seem to understand how mono aether works. You would take damage the first few turns until you are about to die then you start using Dimensional Shields one after the other. Almost all the time you would have enough Dimensional Shields to last until the end of the game and because you have this invincibility for all this time, you have all the time in the world to break down Bone Walls.

Adding Life for Adrenaline only, serves to dilute the effectiveness of Aether by first needing another type of quanta and secondly needing creatures that are not immortal, which are vulnerable to being infected, and which need immortalising. Basically, that's 3 cards (creature{has to be Phase Spider}+Adrenaline+Quintessence) to create a creature that attacks 3 times when you can instead have 3 immortal creatures with the same effect.... I realise 3 immortal creatures would cost more to play in terms of total quanta but they deal more damage and they do not have the problems of needing all 3 cards at the same time to work effectively.

There may be a point for Parallel Universe of Adrenalined Phase Spiders but again you need so many cards at the same time to make it work.

Xiahou Dun

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Re: Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24736#msg24736
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 02:11:40 am »
You don't seem to understand how mono aether works. You would take damage the first few turns until you are about to die then you start using Dimensional Shields one after the other. Almost all the time you would have enough Dimensional Shields to last until the end of the game and because you have this invincibility for all this time, you have all the time in the world to break down Bone Walls.
The 6 Shields 6 Dragons Aether deck would work. Also pretty expensive though. Anything less then 5 shields at least and you'd probably die. The post above you was assuming you were talking about one of the Mono Aether decks that uses stuff like PU, Phase Spiders and Lightning alongside some Dragons and only brings 2 Dimensional Shields.

PuppyChow

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Re: Dun's Discount Decks. Everything you need to fight a god for less then £1.99! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2931.msg24753#msg24753
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 05:00:07 am »
Quote
Then you are going to need to present a new player with not much money or cards under their belt such a huge list of cards to have to buy, not to mention a probable metamorphasis that by the end of it beating Incarnate would have taken more grind then it was probably worth for the gold and perhaps 1 card if they're lucky. The thread is supposed to be about a player working their way up the ladder of the game seeing a FG come up on their Oracle and picking up a couple of cheap cards to be useful to take on that fight and then getting back to working up to the point where they can afford to build a full deck to set them in good stead for the later game.
If you look again at the cards I used, all of them are in normal rainbow god farmers. New players wouldn't actually have to buy much, if any at all.

Quote
You seem to have got the impression that the whole post was on what to put in one single deck against Incarnate. An Entropy deck should try the Antimatter trick, for Aether's I suggested grabbing a Horned Frog or Two and Adrenaline Quinting them etc. Do you see what I was getting at now?
That's because just one of the tricks you posted wouldn't work by itself. So you take 6 antimatters since you're entropy. Incarnate has TWELVE vampires. So, theoretically, every antimatter you play incarnate plays 2 vampires and the damage done/healed evens out.

Then incarnate's blood suckers, skeletons, bone walls, and viruses own you. Sorry. Just the antimatter trick won't work. I could do the same for the other tricks.

Quote
Rather then making one single deck and saying "Use this it would do great on this FG" I'm trying to give a general thread based on looking at a False God and then looking at your current cards and seeing what you have
The problem with that is that noobs will try to do all those strategies, and since each of your strategies only counters one aspect of Incarnate they would NEED to use all of them. Just the immortal adrenalined frogs wouldn't beat incarnate.

Let's say a noob started off with a life L3 farmer using those horned frogs and adrenaline, saw this and looked at his cards and decided to go with that strategy. He would BUY some quintessences. Now he has the  bone walls and bloodsuckers/viruses countered. However, those vampires will run rampant. So then he would have to BUY some antimatters. Then he would realize he's STILL getting outdamaged by those skeletons so would take some RoFs. Let's assume he has a normal god farmer unupped so he has those, at least.

Not to mention a rainbow deck using all those strategies (which it would need to, since none of the strategies you mentioned would win by themselves) would pretty much suck.

Quote
It's much easier for someone to afford a bunch of Scarabs then Otyugh. You wouldn't ever be putting down a 2|1 Scarab.
Not quite. You need to first draw THREE different creatures versus ONE. Getting that combo is VERY hard. Not to mention if he viruses/infects the next turn, you're screwed since eventually all those scarabs will die.

And let's look at quantum cost. Either a) 6 Time or b) 4 Gravity. Now you'll ONLY be using gravity for oty, and the 6 time is in addition to any hastening you do. Looks like otys cheaper.

Quote
Then even if he plays several Retro and Bloodsuckers in one turn
Will never happen, if you're playing right. Ideally you firestorm all those away, and then play your otys. The most he'll ever play in one turn after that is 2. And even then, that is VERY unlikely.

 

blarg: