Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game
Opponents, Strategy and Decks => False Gods => Topic started by: Wesley Gibson on October 15, 2010, 06:10:24 pm
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I'm really fed up with Dark Matter and his gravity Nymphs. He's pulled these out a couple of times on me recently really early in a match, and they're just completely obnoxious. He's already got 12 black hole cards, and a triple mark, which makes it really challenging to get rolling against his deck.
Add to that the fact that his Nymphs can't be won by a player (which they shouldn't be of course) and the situation seems extra lame to me. The deck is already really debilitating and nasty without the nymphs. In my opinion Darkmatter doesn't really need those nymphs since it can suck up 36 quanta of every type with the spell cards in its arsenal, and the fact that it lords unwinable cards over you seems needlessly cruel to me.
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Dark Matter is overpowered. Easily one of the hardest FG. The best way to beat him is to use a deck that is designed to counter him, some of which can be found here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9507.0.html
Basically, mono aether is your best bet (although RoL/Hope also works to some extent), because Dark Matter is usually only good against mono decks early game. Upgraded pillars will give you precious quanta early on which you can use to stall with phase shield (he has no perm control so you will get full protection) and wait until quanta control with BH loses its debilitating effect. Even then, quite a bit of it is luck though, as early grav nymphs will ruin even mono decks.
Early Lobotomizer is also important, because you can remove momentums, and stop grav nymphs from spamming BH.
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Dark Matter is overpowered. Easily one of the hardest FG. The best way to beat him is to use a deck that is designed to counter him, some of which can be found here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,9507.0.html
Basically, mono aether is your best bet (although RoL/Hope also works to some extent), because Dark Matter is usually only good against mono decks early game. Upgraded pillars will give you precious quanta early on which you can use to stall with phase shield (he has no perm control so you will get full protection) and wait until quanta control with BH loses its debilitating effect. Even then, quite a bit of it is luck though, as early grav nymphs will ruin even mono decks.
Early Lobotomizer is also important, because you can remove momentums, and stop grav nymphs from spamming BH.
Yes its a hard deck, and will completely wang most decks that are not mono element (though once of twice my rainbow has managed to beat it on an extremely bad draw). I don't have a problem with that, I enjoy the difficulty of most FG decks.
My point is this:
1.) Dark Matter is likely to defeat the majority of rainbow decks so rapidly that the Nymphs don't have much impact on play. They only serve to guarantee that a rainbow deck will NEVER be able to move against darkmatter when they come out very early.
2.) They're largely useless against mono-decks, because a large number of towers generate too much quantum every turn for them to handle.
3.) Letting a FG play unwinable and incredibly bothersome cards creates no additional incentive to play against that FG, because the cards with the most potential to abuse you are also forbidden from Spins.
If we accept these points, basically the only thing these cards do is force ragequits. With 12 black holes, Darkmatter is going to cast enough of them to COMPLETELY hammer an unlucky rainbow deck on basically ever engagement anyway. That's fine. That's what he's supposed to do. He surpresses your power source and takes off to an early lead.
It seems pointlessly cruel to combine all that potential with the limitless BH potential of a nymph, so that even if you manage to make it through 3 or 4 blackholes and begin to mount a defense, he can permanently lock you down.
Why leave in these rage inducing cards that also taunt the player by being no-spin?
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I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here. I didn't make Dark Matter, so I have no idea why he has 4 nymphs in addition to 12 black holes. 12 BH (or even 10) would have been fine in my opinion, and would have gotten the point across that he is supposed to be an anti-rainbow FG.
What I do when I see DM while I'm playing a rainbow deck (CCYB or others) is play for few turns, then skip when he pulls a nymph. When I'm playing RoL/Hope, I skip when I don't get a lobo in opening hand. Other than that, I usually beat him with pretty good win% if I see him in oracle, because then I know what deck to play.
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My point is that those 4 cards should be removed from his hand.
They can't be won, so they're a pain in the ass there.
They're too powerful to let a FG play because they completely shut down a huge variety of decks.
Due to his triple mark and deck composition he can use them unreasonably often.
Taking them out won't change his play very significantly.
Those cards are basically there to rub in the player's face, which is lame.
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If you want him changed, the best place to post is probably the suggestions section. ;)
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Heh gravity nymphs are actually important for him to draw if you're trying to beat him with a control, oty based rainbow. He has no other creatures below 5 hp, so having a nymph to eat lets you move on to eating all his chargers, which gives you a decent shot at the win :P. Of course him getting one before you get the oty out is basically a loss, but yeah... I dont think it deserves a special removal.
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Dark Matter is made for countering Rainbows.
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Dark Matter is made for countering Rainbows.
Exactly, just because a lot of people use rainbows doesn't mean there can't be an fg specialized to beat them. Seriously, the only reason Dark Matter can be more of a nuisance than Decay, is because people counter fgs with decks that have a lot of different elements in it, especially rainbows.
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There seems to be two issues at heart here:
1. Is the nymph OP in the deck?
2. Should FGs have cards that are not able to be won by players?
Avoiding discussion on #1 for the moment, I do feel that the potential of rolling an upped relic is rather annoying to say the least, but having those relics mess up my spins when I do when is even more annoying. Personally speaking, if nymphs are going to be in FG decks there should be an exception made for them not to be rolled in the spins after winning.
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I do feel that the potential of rolling an upped relic is rather annoying to say the least
It's 1025 Electrum. *shrugs*
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I do feel that the potential of rolling an upped relic is rather annoying to say the least
It's 1025 Electrum. *shrugs*
I'd rather roll a card I might be able to use instead of a card I have no choice but to sell.
Example- Black Hole sells for 1159 electrum. If I want to use that card and I win one, woohoo! But, if I have at least 6 and roll a 7th, I'll make all the electrum plus more than a relic could sell for.
If DM is so difficult to beat, and people don't win that often against him, then taking the relics out of the spins would increase the chances slightly for winning something people may want to keep. And since they don't seem to believe he's someone that's an easy FG to beat, increasing the chances of a winning spin still keeps with the averages of winning spins with regard to other FGs.
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If I remember correctly, spins depend on FG's deck composition. That's why FGs like Osiris and Decay give very generous spins. Rather than bettering the rewards of "harder" FGs, I'd say "harder" FGs and "easier" FGs need to be rebalanced so that all FGs are about the same difficulty.
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If I remember correctly, spins depend on FG's deck composition. That's why FGs like Osiris and Decay give very generous spins. Rather than bettering the rewards of "harder" FGs, I'd say "harder" FGs and "easier" FGs need to be rebalanced so that all FGs are about the same difficulty.
I think you misunderstood my suggestion- I meant that relics should be taken out of the spin process completely since they do nothing when won short of making something that is a no brainer sale at the bazaar.
If relics were taken out of the spins, and one were to win against DM, then the chances of winning something would go up slightly since the cards used in the spins would not use select them.
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Nah, I understood what you meant. I could be wrong about this, but I thought relics were standins for cards that can't be won in spins by players, like nymphs or mark cards?
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Nah, I understood what you meant. I could be wrong about this, but I thought relics were standins for cards that can't be won in spins by players, like nymphs or mark cards?
You're right in that Relics are standins for Nymphs and Marks, but I personally would like to see them taken out completely and nothing put in place of nymphs/marks during the spin process. In other words, make it so you can only win cards from the deck's composition and eliminate relics/nymphs/marks from the spin process.
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Agreed there. Never figured out what the point of relics were. Maybe relic's sellback needs to be increased so that you'll actually get some coin when selling those useless things.
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Nah, I understood what you meant. I could be wrong about this, but I thought relics were standins for cards that can't be won in spins by players, like nymphs or mark cards?
You're right in that Relics are standins for Nymphs and Marks, but I personally would like to see them taken out completely and nothing put in place of nymphs/marks during the spin process. In other words, make it so you can only win cards from the deck's composition and eliminate relics/nymphs/marks from the spin process.
Let's think extreme, and there's a top 50 with 30 nymphs/marks in the deck, then that would result in there being nothing to spin, and thus an infinite loop for the game to find a card in the deck, game crash?
It's unlikely, but not impossible. You can't just remove them, and making it so just for fgs makes things unnecessarily complicated. So I don't think we'll see them dissappear anytime soon.
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Nah, I understood what you meant. I could be wrong about this, but I thought relics were standins for cards that can't be won in spins by players, like nymphs or mark cards?
You're right in that Relics are standins for Nymphs and Marks, but I personally would like to see them taken out completely and nothing put in place of nymphs/marks during the spin process. In other words, make it so you can only win cards from the deck's composition and eliminate relics/nymphs/marks from the spin process.
Let's think extreme, and there's a top 50 with 30 nymphs/marks in the deck, then that would result in there being nothing to spin, and thus an infinite loop for the game to find a card in the deck, game crash?
It's unlikely, but not impossible. You can't just remove them, and making it so just for fgs makes things unnecessarily complicated. So I don't think we'll see them dissappear anytime soon.
If he wanted to make the change, he could just make it so that nymph's dont show up in spins, and mark cards still give relics. There are no FGs who use mark cards, so this would eliminate that issue, and I dont think there is anyone with 30+ nymph's, especially without having more than 6 of one kind.
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The way spins work
1. choose random card
2. if pillar, goto 1 unless this has been done 10 times for this card
3. use 1&2 to choose 5 cards.
4. spin with those 5 cards
5. do this all per spin.
So an easy implementation would be change 2 to if pillar OR SOMETHING THAT RESULTS IN A RELIC AFTER SPIN, etc.
The problem I see is that duo decks that run off of mark get crushed by him, thanks to the nymphs.
so do 1/2 and 1/2 duo decks, unless they are REALLY effective or have spare quanta generatoin (RoL/Hope)
Also, only one generic mono fg-slayer exists, which is anomaly (mono-entropy), and custom decking is stupid when fg grinding.
The nymphs are overkill. It's like giving rainbow antimatters, it's hard enough as it is already.
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If I remember correctly, spins depend on FG's deck composition. That's why FGs like Osiris and Decay give very generous spins. Rather than bettering the rewards of "harder" FGs, I'd say "harder" FGs and "easier" FGs need to be rebalanced so that all FGs are about the same difficulty.
+1 here.
There are almost auto win FG fights, and there are auto quits. Im running 2 Rainbow FG decks. Dark Matter has the perfect counter spell, Black Hole for them. But the presence of nymphs is just overkill. Its forcing you to use mono deck against her, mono deck that probably has at least 80% loss rate against other FGs. Also, if you beat Dark Matter, you have a chance to get upped relic? Cheapest card for a great victory? (Great victory means you got uber lucky and DM got a pathetic draw.) I have 160+ FG victories, only one against Dark Matter, and i dont auto quit when i see her.
IMO nymphs must go or should be replaced by other cards.
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Every time I think DM needs a nerf, I imagine if he'd been given gravity mark in the first place, and just dropped all the light cards. At least its not THAT bad...
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Every time I think DM needs a nerf, I imagine if he'd been given gravity mark in the first place, and just dropped all the light cards. At least its not THAT bad...
Well, he's trying to do that cute grav pull on armagio and healing with archangel thing, but games with him obviously show that this is hardly necessarily for him to win.
I think he just needs nymphs taken out as some people mentioned, and if that is not enough number of black holes reduced to 10.
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Well we do need a rainbow counter deck in the FGs, just like how Decay is the counter to monos.
I think less people run monos than rainbows in FG so more people are whining about DM. Nobody is trying to nerf Decay.
Dream Catcher has nymphs too. Is anyone starting a "Dream Cather Nymphs" thread?
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I think less people run monos than rainbows in FG
Yeeeah, guess why.
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Well we do need a rainbow counter deck in the FGs, just like how Decay is the counter to monos.
I think less people run monos than rainbows in FG so more people are whining about DM. Nobody is trying to nerf Decay.
Dream Catcher has nymphs too. Is anyone starting a "Dream Cather Nymphs" thread?
Dreamcatcher is absolutely horrendous as far as I'm concerned, and I routinely quit rather than bother playing against it. Very likely the only reason it doesn't get talked about much is the fact that a RoL deck can beat it because DC is rather weak at countering RoL.
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No, the reason is that :entropy nymph is a CC tool while :gravity nymph is a QC tool. Many rainbow-based FG farm decks are practically invulnerable against CC because of quints. Many rainbow-based FG farm decks are practically helpless against max 36 quanta being drained every turn.
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I dont know if back when this topic got posted the counter to DM did not exist, but whenever i get him I make sure to stock up on sanctuary. Get one down and you will have all the quants you need, now you only have to deal with his other strengths
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I dont know if back when this topic got posted the counter to DM did not exist, but whenever i get him I make sure to stock up on sanctuary. Get one down and you will have all the quants you need, now you only have to deal with his other strengths
Sanctuary came with 1.27, iirc. So, yeah, Sanctuary didn't exist at the time.
blarg: