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Offline JangooTopic starter

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Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg15862#msg15862
« on: January 06, 2010, 07:58:23 pm »

When I first started fighting False Gods way before any of those nasty patches nerfed sundials, card-spins or boosted the AI by teaching it to properly use explosions and such, I didn't know about the Bonewall. I was bluntly ignoring the prominence of Bonewalls because they were simply too expensive to cast and in my experience wore off within two turns because any FG simply had too many creatures on the board. Instead I would draw from my experience of stealing a gravity shield from Graviton and decided to add a couple to my deck, solving a lot of problems against Gemini, Graviton, Miracle, Rainbow ... well just about any god that will eventually kick your butt with x/6+ critters.
Recently I learned about the awesomeness of the Permafrost shield in Puppy-Chows Rainbow-build enjoying many turns of survival eversince.

So while I did find out eventually how useful a bonewall can be, I cant help the feeling that the recent changes to the game have brought it back to my original impression,

a shield that is expensive to cast and wont help much unless a bunch of other things are given:

* sundials to grant you time to build it up
(not popular/effective anymore)
* not too many creatures on the enemy-board that will take it down right away
(with the Ai bringing out creatures faster than ever, not likely to have that anymore)
* a protected Oty on the board and/or a firestorm ready to boost the wall right away
(yes it happens to be that lucky but how often does it happen when you are really pressed for action?)
* a decent perspective to take down those remaining huge dragons soon so the wall wont die
(this is an evergreen I suppose)
* an AI that will accept the wall as a prime target thus sparing your valuable permanents
(nope, we dont have that anymore)
* ?? -insert other favourable conditions here- ??

I find myself casting the Bonewall in situations where things are looking good for me anyways, making it a bonus to my performance and guaranteeing a mastery win. If things are looking grim (like mostly), I have to cast it to gain another turn but that is about it.
As a mere staller shield I might as well use procrastination or the dim-shield ... those will at least give me extra turns and not die right away. 
The reasoning that any other shield can easily be exploded doesn't quite convince me either anymore: if not the shield, the AI will just explode something else of great importance such as a sog or my pulvy ...


So my question is whether the Bonewall is actually still THE ESSENTIAL SHIELD in any FG-rainbow deck or whether it may have been degraded to be a nice- but not exactly outstanding shield.

Care to discuss?


Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg15870#msg15870
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 08:32:43 pm »
I think it is not the essential shield of false god decks anymore, but it's still a little early to make that decision given the latest update, 1.17. While it is still a good idea to run one, I think Aflatoxin is arguably a better card from the Death element. It serves as both creature control and creature generator for your druid(s). Bone Wall also has terrible synergy with Aflatoxin, so it is really up to the deck builder which way (s)he wants to take the deck. I have tried other shields with some success and I still really like Bone Wall, but Phase Shield and Permafrost Shield are good enough to have earned a spot in some decks.

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg15873#msg15873
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 08:58:01 pm »
I'm liking procrastination, the more I play it.  It essentially cuts the damage you take in half, and slows growth creatures, too.  Gives you a chance to control false gods like Fire Queen / Graviton, etc.  It's not my shield of choice yet, but it's been fun toying with it.  It sure sucks to get it stolen, though.

Offline Getawu2

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg15882#msg15882
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 10:00:50 pm »
I think that the Bonewall is still the best shield in most anti-FG decks - without killing enemy creatures you won't have a chance against FGs, so there will always be an Oty or a Firestorm to get the shield working.

But there will be many new variations with other shields, especially in decks without Sundials - Phase Shields returning, Permafrost, Gravity Shields, Turtle Shield have been mentioned, I think Diamond Shield and Dissipation Shield will be helpful in some decks, too.

Especially as there will be more decks containing Protect Artifects, those shields will find their way in Anti FG-decks, maybe even decks are build around them (I'm trying to build one around Dissipation Shield atm, though it isn't as successful as my Oty-deck yet).

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg15896#msg15896
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 10:49:15 pm »
One of the biggest advantages Bone Wall still has over all other shields is its ability to shut down Fahrenheit. While there is only one false god that uses it to its full effect, it's still something to consider.

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg15919#msg15919
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2010, 06:00:59 am »
One of the biggest advantages Bone Wall still has over all other shields is its ability to shut down Fahrenheit. While there is only one false god that uses it to its full effect, it's still something to consider.
Not to mention Arsenic, and that annoying poison...

One of the main reasons Permafrost has come into the spotlight is that water is a lesser-used quanta. This is important to consider, especially because Bone Wall and Boneyard share death quanta.

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg15920#msg15920
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2010, 07:20:03 am »
I run three bone walls in my deck and it's awesome. I would lose a lot of my games simply because I wouldn't draw one. Three bone walls in a 34 card deck offers a lot of protection.

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg18302#msg18302
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 12:09:31 am »
It has the wrong mana kind (allready we are short on life mana), but jade shield has some impressive properties, amongst them beeing unexplodable.

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg18318#msg18318
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 03:21:01 am »
Bone Wall is still one of the most powerful shields, but the other shields are becoming more and more useful because of AI fixes and changes in code (i.e. Fire Shield). There is more parity among the elements now, so it is becoming much more difficult to decide which shield is the best.

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg18322#msg18322
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 03:34:28 am »
I really want to like Permafrost Shield, but simply have bad luck with it.
I love the fact that it's water quanta and not death, the fact that it has 2 damage reduction, and the fact that it can freeze opponents.

However, in practice, I find it does not freeze nearly enough (maybe 10%?) of the time to justify the switch from a shield that has guaranteed capabilities.

ivalmian

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg18393#msg18393
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 05:44:43 pm »
I think that there are really only 5 possible contenders for anti-god shields...
bonewall and  phase shield as #1
turtle and fire buckler as #2
and diamond shield as distant #3 (although shaving 3 damage of all attacks can be incredibly nice against certain gods)

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Re: Bonewall revisited https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1827.msg18412#msg18412
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 08:06:06 pm »
my list:
1. bonewall
2. phase shield
3. permafrost shield
4. others
5. fire buckler

bonewall is definitely still on top, imo. its only weakness is having to set up the board with a fire storm/otyugh if you want it to stick. even though it's not as easy to sit behind a sundial anymore while you do it, there are still many ways to stall while you set it up. being resistant to steal/explosion is a huge plus as well.

phase shield is great because it can save you from the brink of death whenever you draw it. it's second to bonewall because it only gives you a few extra turns, and you're usually using those to dig for bonewall... also, it's lack of synergy with antimatter (which i'm currently running three of) as well as quintessence (again, running three) occupying most or all of the aether slots for current rainbow decks makes it a little less appealing.

permafrost shield is what i'm currently using in place of phase shield when farming false gods (thanks puppy). it at least slows down most gods due to it's ability to freeze creatures, and virtually stops others i.e. scorpio, ferox, morte, incarnate, fire queen. it doesn't stop arsenic vs morte and scorpio, but on the bright side scorpio at least likes to play trident over the top of arsenic which has saved me a couple times.
@zhen_rogue, the freeze probability is actually 30%
EDIT: it also has a 0% chance of freezing a creature that does not deal you damage. i.e.  a creature with 2 or less attack. this might be what led you to believe it was closer to 10%.

i put fire buckler at the bottom because it's not a shield. there are plenty of ways to remove creatures from the board, but only one place on the board to put a shield. you'll have a good time against dg, but the other gods have very few problems with this card. growth grows faster than fire buckler can deal damage and most other creatures will have likely done what they needed to do before they are finally killed. if you pack one these there will probably be some times where it will be the star, but a vast majority of the time it'll just be a wasted draw.

 

anything
blarg: