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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg386704#msg386704
« on: August 30, 2011, 11:27:42 am »
Please post any suggestion or feedback regarding this event here. Please, avoid RNG rants if possible. If you absolutely have to rant about your RNG, please do so in a spoiler. ;)

On a more serious note: I plan on running this again in the future, with a new theme and new-ish teams. I will listen to all (constructive) feedback, especially regarding team-balancing issues, as the new teams will be similar but probably not identical to these. I hope you enjoyed the event so far, and that you will continue to enjoy it 'till the end.
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Offline RootRanger

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg387490#msg387490
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 01:41:05 am »
I think that when the SO should secretly bet upgrades on matches instead of lending them to players. With the current system, there is often incentive to lose a match, and the SO also have a hard time winning. If the SO bets upgrades instead of lending them, the people being bet on won't know the SO is trying to bet on them.

I am writing this letter because I take issue with some of Random Number Generator's ventures. Instead of focusing on why it is neither possible nor desirable to ignore the issue of obstructionism here, I would like to remind people that Random Number Generator's perspective is that the ideas of "freedom" and "escapism" are Siamese twins. My perspective, in contrast, is that if we contradict Random Number Generator, we are labelled bestial, officious warlords. If we capitulate, however, we forfeit our freedoms. I can no longer get very excited about any revelation of Random Number Generator's hypocrisy or crookedness. It's what I've come to expect by now.

Random Number Generator truly believes that all it takes to solve our social woes are shotgun marriages, heavy-handed divorce laws, and a return to some mythical 1950s Shangri-la. I hope you realize that that's just a surly pipe dream from an unprofessional, spineless pipe and that in the real world, I've never bothered Random Number Generator. Yet Random Number Generator wants to fight with spiritual weapons that are as blowsy as they are uneducated. Whatever happened to "live and let live"? Is it true that Random Number Generator's views make many mainstream goof-offs nervous? The evidence is clear and compelling for those who are willing to look with open eyes and open minds. Everyone else should note that Random Number Generator sometimes uses the word "pathologicohistological" when describing its excuses. Beware! This is a buzzword designed for emotional response.

Random Number Generator is an inspiration to nugatory lugs everywhere. They panegyrize its crusade to weave its feckless traits, vapid effusions, and crafty modes of thought into a rich tapestry that is sure to give voice, in a totally emotional and non-rational way, to its deep-rooted love of exhibitionism, and, more importantly, they don't realize that the one thing that's central to all of Random Number Generator's grotty zingers is a desire to produce a new generation of bad-tempered vagrants whose opinions and prejudices, far from being enlightened and challenged, are simply legitimized. I call this the New Vigilantism. The old vigilantism was concerned only with throwing away our freedom, our honor, and our future. Although that was bad enough, Random Number Generator's arguments would be a lot more effective if they were at least accurate or intelligent, not just a load of bull for the sake of being controversial.

While I trust that this audience shares my indignation at Random Number Generator, I can guarantee the readers of this letter that Random Number Generator contends that it has the linguistic prowess to produce a masterwork of meritorious literature. Excuse me, but where exactly did this little factoid come from? I used to insist that Random Number Generator was an untrustworthy caitiff. However, after seeing how it wants to conceal information and, occasionally, blatantly lie, I now have an even lower opinion of it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I recently informed Random Number Generator that its intimates inspire a recrudescence of drugged-out fatuity. Random Number Generator said it'd "look further into the matter." Well, not too much further. After all, as it matures morally it'll eventually grow out of its present way of thinking and come to realize that I sometimes ask myself whether the struggle to express my views is worth all of the potential consequences. And I consistently answer by saying that it's easy for us to shake our heads at its foolishness and cowardice. It's easy for us to exclaim that we should present a noble vision of who we were, who we are, and who we can potentially be. It's easy for us to say, "I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke Random Number Generator to infiltrate and then dominate and control the mass media." The point is that it's easy for us to say these things because I myself am sincerely not up on the latest gossip. Still, I have heard people say that it would have us vandalize our neighborhoods. May God, in his restraining mercy, forbid that we should ever do this most flighty and grotesque thing!

Random Number Generator will do everything in its power to shift our society from a culture of conscience to a culture of consensus. No wonder corruption is endemic to our society; Random Number Generator's theories are not witty satire, as it would have you believe. They're simply the disorderly, verbally incontinent ramblings of something that has no idea or appreciation of what it's mocking. No matter how bad you think Random Number Generator's overgeneralizations are, I assure you that they are far, far worse than you think. We wouldn't currently have a problem with serfism if it weren't for Random Number Generator. Although it created the problem, aggravated the problem, and escalated the problem, Random Number Generator insists that it can solve the problem if we just grant it more power. How naïve does it think we are? Truly, Random Number Generator would have you believe that it can make all of our problems go away merely by sprinkling some sort of magic, pink, pixie dust over everything that it considers querulous or disdainful. I have already, for the present at least, sufficiently answered the climatic part of this proposition and have only to add that there is one crucial fact that we must not overlook if we are to perceive our current situation as it is, rather than in the anamorphosis of some "ideology" such as nonrepresentationalism or vandalism. Specifically, Random Number Generator truly believes that fogyism resonates with the body's natural alpha waves. It is just such unreasonable megalomania, unforgiving egoism, and intellectual aberrancy that stirs Random Number Generator to hold annual private conferences in which rambunctious bullies are invited to present their "research".

Random Number Generator says that it has mystical powers of divination and prophecy. That's its unvarying story, and it's a lie: an extremely crime-stained and lubricious lie. Unfortunately, it's a lie that is accepted unquestioningly, uncritically, by Random Number Generator's trucklers. Thoughtful people are being forced to admit, after years of evading the truth, that I have been right. I was right when I said that Random Number Generator is crazier than a road lizard. I was right when I said that Random Number Generator hides behind the carefully managed prevarication that its way of life is correct and everyone else's isn't. And I was right when I said that when it says that it is a master of precognition, psychokinesis, remote viewing, and other undeveloped human capabilities, in its mind, that's supposed to end the argument. It's like it believes it has said something very profound.

Mutual efforts against materialistic Dadaism are not just an educational process designed to teach people that Random Number Generator's deeds undeniably qualify for the most vile and contemptuous pejoratives that I have in my arsenal. These efforts also serve as a beacon, warning the world of the sullen consequences of Random Number Generator's wishy-washy, ill-tempered hariolations. Random Number Generator wants to create a Random Number Generator-centric society in which the most bitter cutthroats you'll ever see dictate the populace's values and myths, its traditions and archetypes. You know what groups have historically wanted to do the same thing? Fascists and Nazis. Does Random Number Generator remember the hurt and hate in the eyes of the people it made fun of just so others would like it more? Even if it does, I'm sure it doesn't care because the time is always right to do what is right. That's why we must spread the word about Random Number Generator's negligent traducements to our friends, our neighbors, our relatives, our co-workers—even to strangers. The first step in that process is to realize that by allowing it to spread chauvinistic, capricious views we are selling our souls for dross. Instead, we should be striving to open minds instead of closing them.

I unequivocally don't believe that Random Number Generator answers to no one. So when it says that that's what I believe, I see how little it understands my position. Random Number Generator's polity has found a rallying cry for its upcoming battle against our most treasured liberties. That rallying cry is, "Random Number Generator can bring about peace and prosperity for the whole of humanity through violence, deception, oppression, exploitation, graft, and theft!" It's quotes like that that make me realize that Random Number Generator's list of sins is long and each one deserves more space than I have here. Therefore, rather than describe each one individually, I'll summarize by stating that it wants to bamboozle people into believing that it is a bearer and agent of the Creator's purpose. Faugh.

Random Number Generator is a beer-guzzling, ignominious blackguard. I'm being super-extra nice when I say that. If I weren't so polite I instead would have stated that if five years ago I had described an organization like Random Number Generator to you and told you that in five years it'd burn its foes at the stake, you'd have thought me profligate. You'd have laughed at me and told me it couldn't happen. So it is useful now to note that, first, it has happened and, second, to try to understand how it happened and how if you were to tell it that it seems to be fond of concocting new ways to bring about a wonderland of nativism, it'd just pull its security blanket a little tighter around itself and refuse to come out and deal with the real world.

Random Number Generator can't seriously believe that public opinion is a reliable indicator of what's true and what isn't, can it? Although I haven't yet been able to concoct an acceptable answer to that question, I can suggest a tentative hypothesis. My hypothesis is that it has the nerve to call those of us who defy it "conspiracy theorists". No, we're "conspiracy revealers" because we reveal that it's easy for Random Number Generator to declaim my proposals. But when is it going to provide an alternative proposal of its own? As you ponder the answer to that question, consider that it claims to have data supporting its assertion that the government (and perhaps it itself) should have sweeping powers to arrest and hold people indefinitely on flimsy grounds. Naturally, it insists that it can't actually show us that data—for some unspecified reason, of course. My guess is that it's hiding something. Maybe it's hiding the fact that contrary to my personal preferences, I'm thinking about what's best for all of us. My conclusion is that what's best for all of us is for me to treat the disease, not the symptoms. Let me close by reminding you that Random Number Generator's dissertations do not hold under close moral scrutiny.

(Thanks) (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28939.msg395328#msg395328)
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392600#msg392600
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 06:20:57 pm »
Ok, event has ended. Now is the time to throw out everything you got on this event and its management - except maybe longbows. :)
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Offline Sevs

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392650#msg392650
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 08:17:09 pm »
Not just because we lost but I think the barbarians are at a significant disadvantage in this event.

•• Its goal is one of the hardest to accomplish, along with the court. killing everyone means that the whole team must have ~3 perfect rounds to win. at the same time sparing the court and the upgrade disadvantage.
         - the rebels only need 1 person to win 4 times
         - The twelve only need to kill 4 people
         - The sacred order needs 1 person to get 3 bets right

•• Its upgrades with only 6 no increase no decrease and its ability,
         -you will always be at a disadvantage against the court since you cant ask them questions 6<<12
         -The twelve start will a significant advantage in upgrades for the first 3 rounds hindering your ability to eliminate people quickly before the rebels get too powerful
         -The rebels have the ability to ~match our upgrade total in 1 round

•• The special ability of barbarians, court, twelve are disadvantageous, and sacred orders is their only means of gaining upgrades. leaving rebels with the only positive ability
         - rebels escape is a very powerful ability here. 3 times to escape death means the only way you can lose in the event is running into barbarians or losing twice in a row. This is also compounded by the fact that as the event runs longer the more powerful rebels get. so they can lose and still get stronger.

•• Barbarians 12 creature limitation is harshest of all the factions, you pretty much lose the ability to stall, in a 30 card deck (most stable) you get ~6 extra cards to throw in there, minus the possible shield or weapon. (unless you use quantum generating creatures) not a whole lot to work with. Huge disadvantage to reverse time, pandebonium, and any sort of voodoo deck.
         - 30 cards no deckout not really a huge limitation since deckouts were not common with this event and any 30 card decks with 3 possible elements to         choose from and the SN bow possibility
         -4 copies max isnt terrible. many decks that depend on a card only have 4 of them, (Day Traitors with 4 solar shield, ROL hope with 4 hope, discord BH with 4 discord)
         -6 spells i think as a barbarian i used at least 6 spells in >90% of my decks
         - the court has no deck limitations besides their element
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Offline Jappert

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392663#msg392663
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 08:38:09 pm »
I agree with almost everything Sevs said:

- The Barbarians goal is definately one of the hardest to accomplish, them and the court never had a real chance of winning this event.
- Them staying at 6 upgrades definately is a disadvantage. At the start they get trampled by the twelve and court. At later stages they get trampled by Rebels and the Court...
- The Rebels escape move is definately very powerfull (Bonestorm would have killed me in round 2 if it wasn;t for that).

- 12 creature limitation isn't THAT bad imo. Barbarians had quite alot of option of building very powerfull decks, especially since fire was one of their main elements.
- 4 copies max is pretty damn painfull I can tell you. It rules out pretty much every normal nova- or immobow and leaves us with a combination of the two. I can tell you after alot of testing that I got a shitload of bad draws wich caused losses while I shouldn't have. It also happened in the actual matches (vs Bonestorm and Shantu I believe) where I had awful draws.
- Also don't underestimate the disadvantage the Twelve had for not being able to deck people out. It made it alot easier for people deciding  on their decks knowing they wouldn't be stalled. Especially with the upped card advantage the Twelve have early in the event, stalling would be a great option for them. Switching between rush and stall decks proved vital for me personally.
- I wouldn't know about the 6 spell limitation, doesn;t seem that harsh to me but I never tested vs Sacred order.

- Last but not least, I feel like having to answer questions about your deck after wich your opponent can alter his deck is WAY to harsh. It's quite easy to differentiate a stall from a rush by asking questions and even knowing if a deck contains creatures/CC/PC/whatever. It has such a big impact on the actual outcome of matches I think it should not be part of future events.

Offline Sevs

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392680#msg392680
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 09:09:53 pm »
I agree with almost everything Sevs said:

- The Barbarians goal is definately one of the hardest to accomplish, them and the court never had a real chance of winning this event.
- Them staying at 6 upgrades definately is a disadvantage. At the start they get trampled by the twelve and court. At later stages they get trampled by Rebels and the Court...
- The Rebels escape move is definately very powerfull (Bonestorm would have killed me in round 2 if it wasn;t for that).

- 12 creature limitation isn't THAT bad imo. Barbarians had quite alot of option of building very powerfull decks, especially since fire was one of their main elements.
- 4 copies max is pretty damn painfull I can tell you. It rules out pretty much every normal nova- or immobow and leaves us with a combination of the two. I can tell you after alot of testing that I got a shitload of bad draws wich caused losses while I shouldn't have. It also happened in the actual matches (vs Bonestorm and Shantu I believe) where I had awful draws.
- Also don't underestimate the disadvantage the Twelve had for not being able to deck people out. It made it alot easier for people deciding  on their decks knowing they wouldn't be stalled. Especially with the upped card advantage the Twelve have early in the event, stalling would be a great option for them. Switching between rush and stall decks proved vital for me personally.
- I wouldn't know about the 6 spell limitation, doesn;t seem that harsh to me but I never tested vs Sacred order.

- Last but not least, I feel like having to answer questions about your deck after wich your opponent can alter his deck is WAY to harsh. It's quite easy to differentiate a stall from a rush by asking questions and even knowing if a deck contains creatures/CC/PC/whatever. It has such a big impact on the actual outcome of matches I think it should not be part of future events.
Yea i agree that the 12 creature limitation wasnt as bad as the defeat everyone goal, but it is almost impossible to make a reliable stall with 12 creatures. so one of the main reasons fire is so powerful is the ability to have a great rush and stall and the stalling portion sort of gets thrown to the side since 12 creatures are required.

And yes i can sympathize with you as a member of team :underworld the whole 3-4 of a card thing is painful, but after experiencing deckbuilding with both, i think 12 creatures is tougher limitation

Agreed on the question thing maybe it should be 5 questions for all matches, you pick and choose which matches you want to ask question for
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Offline mrpaper

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392741#msg392741
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2011, 11:31:48 pm »
I agree on Sevs on the problems of having 12 creatures minimum.... It doesn't seem that bad at first and yeah you can build ton of decks from 12 creatures, but all of em will make some sort of a creature rush.  Knowing that, any wise opponent will use it against you using pandemonium, rain of fire, Dimension shield, etc.  The only plan B was to build a deck that ain't really strong pack with other stuff to surprise you're opponent... but if 12 of you're cards are secondary in it, chances of win are slim. 

For suggestion, maybe only lower it to 10 would be enough.  And barbarians should at least get something like, you start with 6 but get  +1 each round... at round 5 it would have mean 11 upped for the few of us that remains.  Or maybe get +2 for each victory, +3 if you decide to kill.
 

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392966#msg392966
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 02:35:31 pm »
I agree with all here but we need something to avoid RNG issues.

Example:We had 2 undefeated members and we lost.

The 30 cards restriction was way to strict because all 3 elements can take an decker w/o much problems.
I recommend something middle like 35 cards restriction.

+The barbarians/court haves an hard goal to achieve, i suggest giving them a little more upgrades.

Also i recommend an tournament between the best w/l ratio player(in the event) and the one who made the goal.
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Offline RootRanger

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392989#msg392989
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 04:26:58 pm »
The Rebels, SO, and Twelve can potentially win the fastest. The SO needs to make strategic bets and win every match. The Twelve can only win quickly if they are lucky as well as skilled.

But the Rebels have a huge advantage. They only need 4 wins before losing 4 times, which is easy. Either Escape should be removed or the Rebels should only gain 2 upgrades per win and only be able to hide twice. I prefer the former, because it keeps the theme. With my option, the Rebels would need 6 wins before losing 3 games.
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Offline Jappert

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg392991#msg392991
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 04:33:19 pm »
But the Rebels have a huge advantage. They only need 4 wins before losing 4 times, which is easy.
Yeah, beating opponents with 20 or 16 ups while you have none in the first two rounds was quite easy!  ::)

I'm not saying Rebels have a hard time winning this event but don't underestimate the huge disadvantage we have in starting rounds. I do agree less escapes/hiding would be a good thing.

Rebels are fine if they'd only die faster imo. It still wouldn't have changed anything though since I only used one hide anyway.

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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg438644#msg438644
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 04:34:09 pm »
I was thinking about this event, as I plan of running it again sometime (probably right after the next Trials and before War #5, like the last one was). What about the following changes to the rules? Note: I plan on changing around the factions' theme anyway, to keep things fresh.

New Barbarians (straightforward team)
Goal: Kill everyone else.
Upgrades: 8
# of Elements: 2
Ability: Ignore special abilities. Gain 4 upgrades if you lost 2 matches.
Restriction: 6 creatures.
Victory: kill opponent.

New Rebels (growing team)
Goal: Gain 20 upgrades.
Upgrades: 0+
# of Elements: 1
Ability: Ignore death once. Gain one upgrade per round.
Restriction: can only use duos.
Victory: gain 3 more upgrades.

New Twelve (decreasing team)
Goal: Kill at least (3*number of players+1) opponents.
Upgrades: 20-
# of Elements: 3
Ability: Lose 2 upgrades with each loss. Lose 2 extra upgrades per round.
Restriction: ???
Victory: kill opponent.

New Sacred Order (influencing team)
Goal: Gain 20 upgrades.
Upgrades: 4+
# of Elements: 1
Ability: Can secretly bet on a matchup, including their own. If the chosen player wins, they gain 4 upgrades. If the chosen player loses 3-2, that player wins instead. This doesn't apply if they bet on theirself.
Restriction: must use 6 spells.
Victory: kill opponent.

New Court (elite team)
Goal: Kill everyone else.
Upgrades: 12
# of Elements: 3
Ability: At the start of each duel, their opponent can ask two questions about their deck. They must answer truthfully.
Restriction: None.
Victory: kill opponent.

New Crime Lords (secret team)
Goal: One of them must win.
Extra ability: Each round, they can target three players and ban 3 cards from those players.


Additionally:
1) If a member of a certain team wins, the whole team has a chance to win. The event will have a second part where all the members of that faction fight each other. Rules to be determined.
2) You can't refuse to kill your opponent. There shouldn't be a case where that is useful, either, with the information you are allowed to have.

Some quick calculations:
Barbarians need to win most of their matches as a team. However, with everybody except Rebels killing people left and right, kill everybody goals should be easier to accomplish: supposing 6 Rebels the number of players goes from 32 to ~20 to ~12 to ~7 to ~4... About 6 rounds in order to win. They also gained some more upgrades (and even more upgrades when cornered), and their restriction is lessened.
Twelve need about 4 good rounds to win. However, by round 3 most of their upgrade advantage will be gone, and from round 5 onwards it is likely that they will lose unless they are well ahead.
Sacred Order needs 4 correct bets and are frail in the first rounds. They might need further restrictions, as they seem a bit strong.
Rebels need to win 5 times before losing twice. They might even be UP now. Also, switched restriction to allow more reasonable deckbuilding rules, but I'm unsure about it.
Court is pretty much the same, just some less questions.
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Re: Falling Empire - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30442.msg438947#msg438947
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2011, 05:41:54 pm »
Being allowed to ask questions is horrible. Ask if you have used a similar deck before (Maybe 80% the same), if not then ask something about a weakness of your team.
You're just as selfish as I am. You're just not as good at it yet.

 

anything
blarg: