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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211284#msg1211284
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2015, 10:39:42 pm »
Where did xray's card go?
He said he'd removed because he felt it was too OP.

Offline dragtom

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211287#msg1211287
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2015, 11:04:56 pm »
well, crap, I only saw the examples just before posting this.


The effect only happens while the cards are in play.
The cards itself also has the effect applied to it (the effect happens exactly before the card hits the field).
This should make it a bit stronger.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 08:29:31 am by dragtom »
be quick- time is quanta.

Offline CleanOnion

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211291#msg1211291
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2015, 12:13:12 am »
There is nothing in this spoiler.  Kindly disregard it.

Spoiler for What caused the drama:
CURATOR COMMENT
This will be submitted, but I ask that you read the following and fix your submission:

Spoiler for Hidden:
A card has to be complete. This isn't a coding rule, and it isn't a rule of submission. It's a rule of what makes a card a card; if a card is incomplete, it does not count as a valid card, which, in turn, makes it impossible to submit.

There are a number of things that make a card complete.

The one in violation here is that a lot of things on these cards are undefined. For a card to be a card, all mechanics on it need to be defined.
This means that, if you make an ability, you need to state what it does. Make a new element, you need to state how it's generated. Make a special cost or ATK/HP, you need to state what that signifies and how it's altered.
We don't talk about this because it's somewhat obvious. If it isn't, I'll clarify that even more. Better to get these errors out sooner than later.

Here are the issues:

"Tuesday" is an undefined cost. Because you have not defined how to pay this cost, the card is incomplete.

"Ainsley Harriott" is an undefined element. Because it's not defined, and how it's generated, the card is incomplete.

"Picture of a pillar" is an undefined card type, or, assuming it's a creature, an undefined ATK/HP, thus making the card incomplete.

"keep voldy alive" is undefined text, making the card incomplete.

These errors make the card incomplete, which in turn, make it invalid to submit. It's not any of the corruption that's the problem; it's the fact the image is not a card. You could submit an image of a toaster, and it'd have the same stats, abilities, and cost of your submission.
-Espithel

Oh dear god here we go
I'm listing all the rules I break, whether coding-based or socially or traditionally or implied or otherwise. Emphasis on otherwise.

This isn't a joke post.

Spoiler for Submission:
Spoiler for Tom Riddle | Lord Voldemort:
 

Upgrade costs 10000 :electrum or a human soul, made payable to Zanzarino Design

Spoiler for | Horcrux:
Rules broken:
Post:
- Don't put a spoiler in your submission
- Don't write in Comic Sans
- Actually export your images, don't just take a screenshot
- Don't write in Comic Sans
- Format your card post correctly, with a desc and notes and stuff
- DON'T WRITE IN COMIC SANS
- Only submit one card. Not one and a half.

Unupped (Tom Riddle):
- Don't use art in your submission
- At least use art that's square
- Use art with a verifiable source
- Don't make human creatures
- AAAHHH DUAL-ELEMENT ABILITY COSTS
- WHAT DO GRAVITY AND LIFE HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING
- AT LEAST MAKE IT A HYBRID DAMMIT
- Cards of element X cost quanta of element X
- Cards must cost an actual amount of quanta to play/cast
- I mean seriously, Tuesday isn't even thematic

Upped (Lord Voldemort):
- Human creatures again
- Don't use Tumblr posts as card images
- Card images shouldn't be funny
- Don't change element during the upgrade... twice
- Ainsley Harriott is not an element
- TV chefs have nothing to do with Harry Potter or EtG
- Cards should die when they have 0HP
- A card that stays alive for long time should probably cost more than five quanta
- Upgrades cost 1500 :electrum

Horcrux:
- Buyable cards must have an unupgraded version
- "Picture of a pillar" isn't a suitable substitute for the Permanent logo
- Descriptions should be in English... or at least readable English
- Again, cost must match element. Is this really so hard to understand


Please, someone stop me before I breed.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 07:12:53 am by Clean0nion »

Offline andretimpa

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211297#msg1211297
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2015, 01:10:12 am »
Reminds me of Espithel's glory days :P you only forgot the "magical when flying" bit.
Every time a graboid evolves, an elemental gets his wings.
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Offline Dm

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211298#msg1211298
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 01:14:53 am »
Clean0nion's card is theorically within the rules of the Challenge.

There is zero reason to decline it.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211299#msg1211299
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015, 01:32:02 am »
CURATOR COMMENT
Hilarious, but no.
This isn't going to be allowed to be submitted for what should be obvious reasons.
Even though that the upped and unupped don't sound too bad if you refine them and would count as valid submissions if you did it properly.
-Espithel

CURATOR COMMENT

For crying out loud, what did you expect when you made a Weekly Challenge about breaking rules?

Clean's card is legal because he fulfilled the objective of "break Cygnia coding rules". The problem's your topic, not his submission. Please either set clearer rules next time or prepare to accept the consequences of loophole submissions.

- ZephyrPhantom


EDIT: Oh, and just to point out another issue, here's a card that is definitely codable in Cygnia with minimal hassle but technically smashes design boundaries to pieces. Consider this my submission.

Spoiler for Hidden:
NAME:
Akemi Homura
ELEMENT:
Time
COST:
15 :time
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
1 | 1
TEXT:
When this card is killed: restart the game with your deck containing 1 less Akemi Homura.
NAME:
Rebellion Homura
ELEMENT:
Death
COST:
12 :death
TYPE:
Creature
ATK|HP:
1 | 1
TEXT:
When this card is killed: restart the game with half the HP you had the last time you started this game.

ART:
Lukáš Patkaň, edited by ZephyrPhantom
IDEA:
ZephyrPhantom
NOTES:
I'm just going to point out here that you also didn't say anything about breaking CI&A rules. Whoop dee doo.

How is this minimal hassle?
Unupped:
1) At the beginning of the game, clone the PlayerDeck data structure of cards. Initialize a Homura Counter.
2) When Homura dies: destroy all cards, wipe out both player's hands, set HP=100, set all quanta=0. Increment Homura Counter by 1.
3) Set PlayerDecks equal to cloned PlayerDecks. Remove X Homuras from owner's deck, where X= Homura Counter amount.

Upped:
1) At the beginning of the game, clone the PlayerDeck data structure of cards. Initialize a PreviousMaxHP int.
2) When Homura dies: destroy all cards, wipe out both player's hands, set HP=PreviousMaxHP/2, set all quanta=0. Set PreviousMaxHP=your new current starting HP.
3)  Set PlayerDecks equal to cloned PlayerDecks.

And yes, JavaScript has Object-Oriented Programming, so all that I'd really need to do at this point is translate it into the actual lexicon serp's used to make oETG.
SERIES:

« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 02:11:04 am by ZephyrPhantom »

Offline EspithelTopic starter

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211320#msg1211320
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2015, 04:12:04 am »
Clean0nion's card is theorically within the rules of the Challenge.

There is zero reason to decline it.
For crying out loud, what did you expect when you made a Weekly Challenge about breaking rules?

Clean's card is legal because he fulfilled the objective of "break Cygnia coding rules". The problem's your topic, not his submission. Please either set clearer rules next time or prepare to accept the consequences of loophole submissions.

- ZephyrPhantom


Hmm.
Very well.
I would be able to defend my position quite easily, but in the interest of ending this argument quickly and with no fuss, I will concede.

Here is what I'm going to do:
I'm going to write a de facto ruleset for all challenges, which'll be effective for the next challenge. I would make them effective immediately, but then something about making rules up as you go along is considered a bad idea.

The current rules will be unedited, but clarified.

Regarding this submission, I will drop my argument for this week. My argument for the denial, however, is still valid, and any type of submission like this will be invalid next week forward.
As a result, I'm going to, instead, ask that they fix their submission.
And, I'm going to ask that no one else tries any similar submission.

A lot, if not all of current WC moderation simply involves curator discretion and nothing else. This is the first time I've really invoked that power, because this is the first time an image of a toaster has the same text as a submission. If you want an absolute, binary yes/no system, instead of the fluid "Within Reason" we use now, then very well. I've shied away from doing that simply because, by the very nature of cards, rigid rulesets limit what you can do. It's much safer for cards to be allowed "Within Reason", but that does lead itself up to exploitation.

Here is why 0nion's submission is, otherwise, invalid:
Spoiler for Hidden:
A card has to be complete. This isn't a coding rule, and it isn't a rule of submission. It's a rule of what makes a card a card; if a card is incomplete, it does not count as a valid card, which, in turn, makes it impossible to submit.

There are a number of things that make a card complete.

The one in violation here is that a lot of things on these cards are undefined. For a card to be a card, all mechanics on it need to be defined.
This means that, if you make an ability, you need to state what it does. Make a new element, you need to state how it's generated. Make a special cost or ATK/HP, you need to state what that signifies and how it's altered.
We don't talk about this because it's somewhat obvious. If it isn't, I'll clarify that even more. Better to get these errors out sooner than later.

Here are the issues:

"Tuesday" is an undefined cost. Because you have not defined how to pay this cost, the card is incomplete.

"Ainsley Harriott" is an undefined element. Because it's not defined, and how it's generated, the card is incomplete.

"Picture of a pillar" is an undefined card type, or, assuming it's a creature, an undefined ATK/HP, thus making the card incomplete.

"keep voldy alive" is undefined text, making the card incomplete.

These errors make the card incomplete, which in turn, make it invalid to submit. It's not any of the corruption that's the problem; it's the fact the image is not a card. You could submit an image of a toaster, and it'd have the same stats, abilities, and cost of 0nion's submission.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 04:16:05 am by Espithel »

Offline Dm

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211321#msg1211321
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015, 04:16:09 am »
Sure, let me break your argument then:

None of your arguments about how the card is incomplete is even close to valid because this competition literally asks you to break rules

Make better rules next time.

Is it safer to be allowed within reason?

Yeah! Of course it is!
Maybe with reasonable challenges?

Offline EspithelTopic starter

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211322#msg1211322
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2015, 04:17:36 am »
Make better rules next time.

Consider it done.

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211324#msg1211324
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2015, 04:54:26 am »
Note: I don't want to join/continue the argument, just "evaluating" the "card"

Frankly, I'm not sure if Clean's submission even qualifies as a card anymore :P But for the sake of arguement let's say it does.

Anyway, half of those rules you list aren't even rules of card creation

Spoiler for Hidden:
Rules broken:
Post:
- Don't put a spoiler in your submission
- Don't write in Comic Sans
- Actually export your images, don't just take a screenshot
- Don't write in Comic Sans
- Format your card post correctly, with a desc and notes and stuff
- DON'T WRITE IN COMIC SANS
^These are posting rules. Messed up, but not relevant.
- Only submit one card. Not one and a half. No rule against card generating a card.

Unupped (Tom Riddle):
- Don't use art in your submission
- At least use art that's square
- Use art with a verifiable source
^Posting rules again
- Don't make human creatures
- AAAHHH DUAL-ELEMENT ABILITY COSTS
- WHAT DO GRAVITY AND LIFE HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING Wut?
- AT LEAST MAKE IT A HYBRID DAMMIT Wut #2?
- Cards of element X cost quanta of element X
- Cards must cost an actual amount of quanta to play/cast
- I mean seriously, Tuesday isn't even thematic

Upped (Lord Voldemort):
- Human creatures again
- Don't use Tumblr posts as card images Posting
- Card images shouldn't be funny Posting
- Don't change element during the upgrade... twice
- Ainsley Harriott is not an element
- TV chefs have nothing to do with Harry Potter or EtG Right...
- Cards should die when they have 0HP
- A card that stays alive for long time should probably cost more than five quanta
- Upgrades cost 1500 :electrum

Horcrux:
- Buyable cards must have an unupgraded version Doesn't say anywhere it's buyable in Bazaar
- "Picture of a pillar" isn't a suitable substitute for the Permanent logo
- Descriptions should be in English... or at least readable English
- Again, cost must match element. Is this really so hard to understand


So, in my opinion if you clean up the post to fit submission standards (which were not meant to be broken) then it's viable - just really not well defined (Singularity^2).

Z, you should also remove art
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 04:58:51 am by Treldon »
The one with answerable questions and questionable answers


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Offline CleanOnion

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211327#msg1211327
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2015, 05:39:47 am »
Here's my view.

I had fun making that card at 1AM. Hopefully, a few other people will have a little fun reading through it and reading it's awfulness and the demands to change it and the ensuing conversation.

It's the last challenge of the month. I have 2 points, Treldon has 7, there are a few pretty awesome folk between us. I enjoy card designing and I enjoy things to do with cards on this forum ('cept deckbuilding), but I don't think for one second that I'm any good at it. Everyone who's beating me on the leaderboard is better than me, and I say fair play to them. They deserve that. I know when I'm beat.

We all want that little coloured square in our Awards. But ultimately, this WC is a game based on a game that could well be based on a game for all I know. If it's not designed to have fun then I honestly don't see the point of it, other than a competition for the sake of competition.

So I won't be changing my entry. To dilute the nectar would make it less sweet. It will remain as a relic of 'fun'. If that exempts me from the challenge, so be it. I accept that, and that doesn't look likely to change unless I think of a new idea. Hey, it gives the other contestants a better chance of being voted for.

In conclusion, I enjoyed my submission and I hope others can too, and that's all I have to say about that. I welcome further feedback.

Cheers! (and cheers for hosting this Espithel + Z + AD <3 )

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: [ChotM #4]: Screw the Rules! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=60146.msg1211353#msg1211353
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2015, 12:36:55 pm »
We'll be moving any future discussion regarding Clean's cards to PMs. Sorry for any disruptions, folks.

Espithel, please see PMs before you attempt to make any further Curator Comments.


Z, you should also remove art
One of the issues is that Espithel didn't specify whether breaking CI&A submission rules or not was acceptable. Aside from the fact that forum rules trump all and we need to keep this PG-13/no spam, my card technically "breaks a traditional rule" - the point was that Akemi Homura managed to trample tons of rules underfoot, but ultimately still didn't manage to fill Espithel's base rule, which was "make it hard to code in Cygnia". As I've pointed out in the notes, it probably really isn't.

My point in making this card is to show the various issues with the challenge as a whole. Once that's been cleared with, I'll streamline the card to be more fitting as both a card and a challenge entry.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 12:58:43 pm by ZephyrPhantom »

 

anything
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