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Nilleeni

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg126358#msg126358
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2010, 11:28:52 am »
Should i count Ray of Lights as pillars?

My deck has 3,21 when i count RoLs as pillars...

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg126519#msg126519
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2010, 05:22:12 pm »
Should i count Ray of Lights as pillars?

My deck has 3,21 when i count RoLs as pillars...
I would personally, but many people disagree.  I look at QI as TOTAL quanta generation for the deck, and this includes creatures that generate quanta.

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg126556#msg126556
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2010, 06:17:52 pm »
Should i count Ray of Lights as pillars?

My deck has 3,21 when i count RoLs as pillars...
To quote myself

I totally agree with puppychow, 5 isn't always the optimal number.

In speed decks, you need to have a quantum index of 5 or less, as SG said (yes all the decks she tested are speed deck, except the aether one, and that one has a higher QI).

In stall decks however, your pillars will generate more quanta, because there are more turns, so your QI can be higher.


O, and I like to think of devourers as darkness pillars with a summoning cost of 2, so for QI I count them as pillars with a cost, just like towers are calculated as pillars with a summoning cost of -1.
O, forgot to mention, the same thing can be done for other quanta generating cards: firefly, elite firefly, darnselfly, ray of light, gnome gemfinder and brimstone eater.
(Elite) Firefly would be a bit different of course, because you can calculate them as light or fire pillar, but they cost air. (but we already said you should calculate each element apart).
[/quote]
Well, I got good results doing so.

Look at this:
Code: [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv
When calculating this deck:
Cost: 6*2 (devourer) + 6*2*-1 (devourer skill) + 2*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 56
Pillars: 11
QI=5,09

However when playing this deck, you will find yourself a lot of times stuck with useless quanta (you easily get 30+ darkness quanta).

That is why I tweaked it a little to:
Code: [Select]
5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv
This one has much better results, but when calculating your way, you will find a quanta index of:
Cost: 6*2 + 6*2*-1 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 65
Pillars = 8
QI = 8,125

This suggest you will always be short on quanta, but I didn't encounter any problems (well, only the real bad draws, but on average, it worked fine).
When calculating my way, you will find:
Cost: 6*2 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 77
'Pillars' = 8+6=14
QI = 5,5

This number is a lot closer to the truth. This deck is not pretty fast, so your quanta index can be a little higher than 5 (mentioned earlier), and 5,5 is what it seams like, comparing to others.


Another note: when counting my mark, I count it as 2,5 pillar, when it is my only source of that elements quanta (like here).
Most people will feel the mark is enough to use the skills of the devourers and the gargoyles, but when counting it as a normal pillar you will find a quanta index of 12. When counting it a 2,5 pillar, you get a QI of 4,8 which is what is looks like. (same applies for speed poison for example, with 6 freezes and 6 chrysoara's on you mark only).

I count it as 2 pillars when there are only a not many pillars (less than 5) of that element, and as 1,5 pillars when there are a lot more (like in monodecks), because the lonely little mark will be relatively less effective when there are also pillars around.
Yes a devourer, especially a burrowed one, definately counts as a pillar for all intensive purposes.
You need to come up with something better than that. :)

Reason why a Devourer will never produce as much quanta as a Pillar is because Devourer is more likely to be removed from the game. EQ is only real anti-Pillar card, but there are tons of anti-Devourer cards. If you have two decks, one with 18 Pillars and one with 12 Pillars and 6 Devourers, the first one will produce more quanta on average.

I'm not saying counting Devourers as Pillars give totally wrong results. I'm just saying that it's not a "perfect" solution.
Counting devourers as they are giving only 2 quanta is even more far from perfect. And removing a burrowed devourer is harder than removing a pillar. Because, besides EQ, you can also use deflags, pulvy, steal or butterfly effect. And the devourer can only be removed by fire wall and thorn carapace, but that needs a nightfall.
I think Linkcat and Coinich are missing the point of this.  This isn't about the Graveyard-produced Skeletons, this is about the stand-alone card.  This is a matter of "Why should a player run Skeletons in his deck when there are far better cards to put in their place".  Should the stand-alone card be buffed in someway that Graveyard Spawns aren't?  Should the card just removed as a stand-alone so it can only be summoned via Graveyards?  I mean, at least with Fire, Wind and Earth their pointless weak cards turn into Quanta sources when upgraded, and Light's weakling is free to cast, but Skeletons just kinda stay worthless.
You can't change Skeleton without changing Graveyard and Boneyard.  It just doesn't work.  And yes, its meant to be a weak creature.  Simply because it doesn't measure up to the vaunted RoL's utility doesn't mean that this card needs a buff.  If we did that, we'd have to increase cards like Abomination to compete with the Blue Crawler.
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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg138484#msg138484
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2010, 02:30:05 pm »
So anyone take a gander at this with the new Pendulums?  My gut instinct is to count the pendulums as .5 for each element (1 if you are one of the silly people who plays his/her pendulums w/ the same mark).

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg138699#msg138699
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2010, 07:27:19 pm »
So anyone take a gander at this with the new Pendulums?  My gut instinct is to count the pendulums as .5 for each element (1 if you are one of the silly people who plays his/her pendulums w/ the same mark).
Pendulums are rather confusing - I usually just playtest for optimal number rather than calculate it. That said, I think .5 is a good approximation, but it all depends on your deck.

Also, it's not silly using same-mark pendulums. :P The only thing you lose are electrum - in return you get semi-EQ protection.

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg138712#msg138712
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2010, 07:38:20 pm »
Goes slightly against the general consensus here, but looking at the rush decks I've explored I find the optimal deck for speed purposes generally ends up with a QI of around 4-4.5.  Running a bit low helps dump the hand quicker and get an early advantage in damage.

Scaredgirl

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg138754#msg138754
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2010, 08:52:34 pm »
Goes slightly against the general consensus here, but looking at the rush decks I've explored I find the optimal deck for speed purposes generally ends up with a QI of around 4-4.5.  Running a bit low helps dump the hand quicker and get an early advantage in damage.
Yep. I, and many others, have been going for 4.5 for a long time now (we even talk about it on this topic if I'm not mistaken). That 5 I posted in the original post was just a hypothesis I made without any real testing because I wanted a nice even number, and somehow a lot of people assumed that it was the "magic number" :) During later testing I quickly realized that the optimal number for a fast deck is actually closer to 4. Like I said, I generally use about 4.5.

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg138857#msg138857
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2010, 11:25:40 pm »
So Pendulums count as 0.5 pillars for both elements? I think it might be more complicated than that. For example, would 12 Dark Pendulums with Aether Mark be equal to 6 Obsidian Pillars and 6 Aether Pillars? I think the difference is probably determined by your deck size.
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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg138862#msg138862
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2010, 11:33:08 pm »
So Pendulums count as 0.5 pillars for both elements? I think it might be more complicated than that. For example, would 12 Dark Pendulums with Aether Mark be equal to 6 Obsidian Pillars and 6 Aether Pillars? I think the difference is probably determined by your deck size.
The way I would do it is this.  I would count 12 Dark Pendalums as 6 Obsidian Pillars and 6 Aether Pillars if unupped.  Upped I would do the same, but would also subtract 12 from the total cost of :darkness quanta used.

This would be the most accurate way to look at the total quanta generation of the deck.  Its the same basic way as counting an other card such as a hammer toward half of each quanta used.

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg138885#msg138885
« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2010, 12:25:24 am »
Goes slightly against the general consensus here, but looking at the rush decks I've explored I find the optimal deck for speed purposes generally ends up with a QI of around 4-4.5.  Running a bit low helps dump the hand quicker and get an early advantage in damage.
Yep. I, and many others, have been going for 4.5 for a long time now (we even talk about it on this topic if I'm not mistaken). That 5 I posted in the original post was just a hypothesis I made without any real testing because I wanted a nice even number, and somehow a lot of people assumed that it was the "magic number" :) During later testing I quickly realized that the optimal number for a fast deck is actually closer to 4. Like I said, I generally use about 4.5.
Heh, but 5 is so easy to do in my head!

That said, though, I usually build charge-style decks, so 5 is usually a good number for me anyways.

Also, jmdt's way of counting towers is briliant. I can't believe I didn't think of that.

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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg143379#msg143379
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2010, 02:50:20 pm »
Im working on a program for quantum index right now. So Ive got a few questions.
1)How does QI work when there are multiple elements in a deck? Wouldnt you need a seperate QI for each element?
2)Is the formula on the main page the correct formula?
3)What has been the officially decided Way to take abilities into consideration?
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Re: Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5676.msg143443#msg143443
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2010, 04:38:18 pm »
Im working on a program for quantum index right now. So Ive got a few questions.
1)How does QI work when there are multiple elements in a deck? Wouldnt you need a seperate QI for each element?
2)Is the formula on the main page the correct formula?
3)What has been the officially decided Way to take abilities into consideration?
For a duo or trio, you calculate the QI separately for each element.   Once you start using quantum pillars or going many cards over 30 the QI isn't as valid.

Count an ability you plan to use every turn (ffq's ability) twice and copunt conditional abilities (Maxwell's ability) once

 

blarg: