Using Quanta Index to determine the optimal number of Pillars in a deck

[thekillergame]

How does it work in combination with fractal??

[PuppyChow]

I just want to mention this:

Yes, QI is a great way to figure out if you have a good number of pillars in the deck. But there's more to it than just calculating it and deciding if it's below or above 5.

I keep seeing people just posting on decks what the deck's QI is, and saying it's too high just based on what the number is. Don't do that.

For instance: Mono Aether Stall (6x dim shields, 6x phase dragon, 2x lobo, 16x pillar). While this deck has a high QI, it is perfectly fine because you don't need to play every card as you draw it. You just need to get 1-2 dragons out and have enough quanta to play a shield every 3 turns and you just play more dragons when you have the extra quanta. So a high QI is fine.

Or antimatter stall decks. For instance, my mono entropy I use a lot has a QI of 7.5, but since it relies on only being able to play the antimatters early and then play dragons when you have the extra quanta, it works just fine.

So when criticizing a deck because of its QI, consider the type of deck it is. Don't blindly say it's too high or too low.

[the dictator]

I totally agree with puppychow, 5 isn't always the optimal number.

In speed decks, you need to have a quantum index of 5 or less, as SG said (yes all the decks she tested are speed deck, except the aether one, and that one has a higher QI).

In stall decks however, your pillars will generate more quanta, because there are more turns, so your QI can be higher.


O, and I like to think of devourers as darkness pillars with a summoning cost of 2, so for QI I count them as pillars with a cost, just like towers are calculated as pillars with a summoning cost of -1.

[Leerest]

O, and I like to think of devourers as darkness pillars with a summoning cost of 2, so for QI I count them as pillars with a cost, just like towers are calculated as pillars with a summoning cost of -1.

Actually a good point, i will consider it for some cards from now on.

[Chatix]

Quite handy!
Thanks!

[the dictator]

I totally agree with puppychow, 5 isn't always the optimal number.

In speed decks, you need to have a quantum index of 5 or less, as SG said (yes all the decks she tested are speed deck, except the aether one, and that one has a higher QI).

In stall decks however, your pillars will generate more quanta, because there are more turns, so your QI can be higher.


O, and I like to think of devourers as darkness pillars with a summoning cost of 2, so for QI I count them as pillars with a cost, just like towers are calculated as pillars with a summoning cost of -1.

O, forgot to mention, the same thing can be done for other quanta generating cards: firefly, elite firefly, darnselfly, ray of light, gnome gemfinder and brimstone eater.
(Elite) Firefly would be a bit different of course, because you can calculate them as light or fire pillar, but they cost air. (but we already said you should calculate each element apart).

[Scaredgirl]

O, and I like to think of devourers as darkness pillars with a summoning cost of 2, so for QI I count them as pillars with a cost

I don't think that gives accurate results because your opponent will much more likely get rid of your Devourers than your Pillars. Currently there's only one dedicated anti-Pillar card (Earthquake), but there are tons of creature control cards. Sure all permanent removals can be used for Pillars as well but they rarely do.

Same thing goes with your post above.

[the dictator]

Well, I got good results doing so.

Look at this:

Code: [Select]

5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv
When calculating this deck:
Cost: 6*2 (devourer) + 6*2*-1 (devourer skill) + 2*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 56
Pillars: 11
QI=5,09

However when playing this deck, you will find yourself a lot of times stuck with useless quanta (you easily get 30+ darkness quanta).

That is why I tweaked it a little to:

Code: [Select]

5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv
This one has much better results, but when calculating your way, you will find a quanta index of:
Cost: 6*2 + 6*2*-1 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 65
Pillars = 8
QI = 8,125

This suggest you will always be short on quanta, but I didn't encounter any problems (well, only the real bad draws, but on average, it worked fine).
When calculating my way, you will find:
Cost: 6*2 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 77
'Pillars' = 8+6=14
QI = 5,5

This number is a lot closer to the truth. This deck is not pretty fast, so your quanta index can be a little higher than 5 (mentioned earlier), and 5,5 is what it seams like, comparing to others.


Another note: when counting my mark, I count it as 2,5 pillar, when it is my only source of that elements quanta (like here).
Most people will feel the mark is enough to use the skills of the devourers and the gargoyles, but when counting it as a normal pillar you will find a quanta index of 12. When counting it a 2,5 pillar, you get a QI of 4,8 which is what is looks like. (same applies for speed poison for example, with 6 freezes and 6 chrysoara's on you mark only).

I count it as 2 pillars when there are only a not many pillars (less than 5) of that element, and as 1,5 pillars when there are a lot more (like in monodecks), because the lonely little mark will be relatively less effective when there are also pillars around.

[jmdt]

Well, I got good results doing so.

Look at this:

Code: [Select]

5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uvWhen calculating this deck:
Cost: 6*2 (devourer) + 6*2*-1 (devourer skill) + 2*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 56
Pillars: 11
QI=5,09

However when playing this deck, you will find yourself a lot of times stuck with useless quanta (you easily get 30+ darkness quanta).

That is why I tweaked it a little to:

Code: [Select]

5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uvThis one has much better results, but when calculating your way, you will find a quanta index of:
Cost: 6*2 + 6*2*-1 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 65
Pillars = 8
QI = 8,125

This suggest you will always be short on quanta, but I didn't encounter any problems (well, only the real bad draws, but on average, it worked fine).
When calculating my way, you will find:
Cost: 6*2 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 77
'Pillars' = 8+6=14
QI = 5,5

This number is a lot closer to the truth. This deck is not pretty fast, so your quanta index can be a little higher than 5 (mentioned earlier), and 5,5 is what it seams like, comparing to others.


Another note: when counting my mark, I count it as 2,5 pillar, when it is my only source of that elements quanta (like here).
Most people will feel the mark is enough to use the skills of the devourers and the gargoyles, but when counting it as a normal pillar you will find a quanta index of 12. When counting it a 2,5 pillar, you get a QI of 4,8 which is what is looks like. (same applies for speed poison for example, with 6 freezes and 6 chrysoara's on you mark only).

I count it as 2 pillars when there are only a not many pillars (less than 5) of that element, and as 1,5 pillars when there are a lot more (like in monodecks), because the lonely little mark will be relatively less effective when there are also pillars around.

The mark does only count as 1 pillar.  It is a permanent pillar so how can it do anything else.  The QI is essentially the number of turns it takes all the pillars to generate the quanta to play all the cards.  In the case of this deck you have 12 cards that use earth quanta and generate 1 earth quanta every turn.  Hence it would take twelve turns to generate enough earth quanta to use the earth effect of each of the 12 cards so the QI is definately 12.  Odds are you will never need all of the mark quanta before the game is over as it would take 6 turns just to draw those 12 cards, assuming you drew no pillars at all.  It is ok to have a QI of 12 from the mark as long as it is a bunch of cheap effects or spells.
 
Yes a devourer, especially a burrowed one, definately counts as a pillar for all intensive purposes.
 
The ultimate quastion is...on average do you have too much, not enough, or the right amount of quanta for the particular deck.  The answer varies from deck to deck.  For a life deck I like to dump 2 cards per turn early for a speed advantage so I run a lower QI so I always have tons of quanta early.  In a stall deck I run, I have the quanta balanced so that I have just enough quanta to play a phase shield every 3 turns.  Is the QI high, yes, but I'm not trying to play multiple phase shields evey turn so its ok.

[the dictator]

Well, I got good results doing so.

Look at this:

Code: [Select]

5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uvWhen calculating this deck:
Cost: 6*2 (devourer) + 6*2*-1 (devourer skill) + 2*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 56
Pillars: 11
QI=5,09

However when playing this deck, you will find yourself a lot of times stuck with useless quanta (you easily get 30+ darkness quanta).

That is why I tweaked it a little to:

Code: [Select]

5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5uk 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5um 5up 5up 5uq 5uq 5uq 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uu 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uv 5uvThis one has much better results, but when calculating your way, you will find a quanta index of:
Cost: 6*2 + 6*2*-1 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 65
Pillars = 8
QI = 8,125

This suggest you will always be short on quanta, but I didn't encounter any problems (well, only the real bad draws, but on average, it worked fine).
When calculating my way, you will find:
Cost: 6*2 + 2*3 + 3*3 + 5*4 + 6*5 = 77
'Pillars' = 8+6=14
QI = 5,5

This number is a lot closer to the truth. This deck is not pretty fast, so your quanta index can be a little higher than 5 (mentioned earlier), and 5,5 is what it seams like, comparing to others.


Another note: when counting my mark, I count it as 2,5 pillar, when it is my only source of that elements quanta (like here).
Most people will feel the mark is enough to use the skills of the devourers and the gargoyles, but when counting it as a normal pillar you will find a quanta index of 12. When counting it a 2,5 pillar, you get a QI of 4,8 which is what is looks like. (same applies for speed poison for example, with 6 freezes and 6 chrysoara's on you mark only).

I count it as 2 pillars when there are only a not many pillars (less than 5) of that element, and as 1,5 pillars when there are a lot more (like in monodecks), because the lonely little mark will be relatively less effective when there are also pillars around.

The mark does only count as 1 pillar.  It is a permanent pillar so how can it do anything else.  The QI is essentially the number of turns it takes all the pillars to generate the quanta to play all the cards.  In the case of this deck you have 12 cards that use earth quanta and generate 1 earth quanta every turn.  Hence it would take twelve turns to generate enough earth quanta to use the earth effect of each of the 12 cards so the QI is definately 12.  Odds are you will never need all of the mark quanta before the game is over as it would take 6 turns just to draw those 12 cards, assuming you drew no pillars at all.  It is ok to have a QI of 12 from the mark as long as it is a bunch of cheap effects or spells.
 
Yes a devourer, especially a burrowed one, definately counts as a pillar for all intensive purposes.
 
The ultimate quastion is...on average do you have too much, not enough, or the right amount of quanta for the particular deck.  The answer varies from deck to deck.  For a life deck I like to dump 2 cards per turn early for a speed advantage so I run a lower QI so I always have tons of quanta early.  In a stall deck I run, I have the quanta balanced so that I have just enough quanta to play a phase shield every 3 turns.  Is the QI high, yes, but I'm not trying to play multiple phase shields evey turn so its ok.

Well, I think you can count the mark as more than one pillar, because you have to DRAW a pillar before it takes effect. All the cards in your deck need to be drawn first, so you can compare them to each other in cost and gain, but you can't count your mark the same, as you don't have to draw it.
I mean, you get your pillars on average halfway in your deck, so they will only get you 15 turns of quanta (when going to deckout, with a 30 card deck). You mark however, will get you 23 turns of quanta, so you can't calculate them the same.

Saying a quanta index of 12 is ok, is like saying, this deck works, so this quanta index is ok, instead of saying, this deck works, and what exceptions are there compared to 'normal' decks, and when I calculate with them another way, what quanta index to I get then.

[Scaredgirl]

Yes a devourer, especially a burrowed one, definately counts as a pillar for all intensive purposes.

You need to come up with something better than that.

Reason why a Devourer will never produce as much quanta as a Pillar is because Devourer is more likely to be removed from the game. EQ is only real anti-Pillar card, but there are tons of anti-Devourer cards. If you have two decks, one with 18 Pillars and one with 12 Pillars and 6 Devourers, the first one will produce more quanta on average.

I'm not saying counting Devourers as Pillars give totally wrong results. I'm just saying that it's not a "perfect" solution.

[the dictator]

Yes a devourer, especially a burrowed one, definately counts as a pillar for all intensive purposes.

You need to come up with something better than that.

Reason why a Devourer will never produce as much quanta as a Pillar is because Devourer is more likely to be removed from the game. EQ is only real anti-Pillar card, but there are tons of anti-Devourer cards. If you have two decks, one with 18 Pillars and one with 12 Pillars and 6 Devourers, the first one will produce more quanta on average.

I'm not saying counting Devourers as Pillars give totally wrong results. I'm just saying that it's not a "perfect" solution.

Counting devourers as they are giving only 2 quanta is even more far from perfect. And removing a burrowed devourer is harder than removing a pillar. Because, besides EQ, you can also use deflags, pulvy, steal or butterfly effect. And the devourer can only be removed by fire wall and thorn carapace, but that needs a nightfall.