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Offline MithcairionTopic starter

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Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg487797#msg487797
« on: April 26, 2012, 03:16:29 pm »
General reply to this post in order to place their bid for the Round 1 Event Card.



Event Card:


Notes:  Generals reply to this topic and place a bid of 1 card or higher specifying both the number of cards bid and which cards are to be part of the bid.  The deadline for posting the bid is 24 hours prior to the deckbuilding deadline and the relic won is useable immediately.  If no bid is posted it will be assumed 1 card is sacrificed and will be chosen at random.  If a bid is placed but cards are not specified, they will be chosen at random.  All cards bid in this manner are lost, regardless of whether or not it is the highest bid.



Bidding is over!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 03:27:36 pm by kev »
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Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg489432#msg489432
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2012, 07:40:00 am »
Disregard this post if my General posts here before the deadline.  Otherwise Team  :earth bids 1  :earth pillar.
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Offline kev

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg489554#msg489554
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2012, 03:22:43 pm »
I'm sorry; you did not make the winning bid.  Please remove 1 Arsenic during the first sdcpa phase.

Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg489762#msg489762
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2012, 10:56:44 pm »
We bid 1  :earth pillar.... why are we removing an arsenic from our vault??

Our bid was on time and specific.  My General was not able to post on time so I did so for him per my role as Lieutenant as specified in the rules.
"If one team member is unable to perform his or her duties, the Lieutenant is responsible for performing the job of that team member.  Lieutenants also act as liaison for the Support Team, submitting actions to the Warmasters."
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Offline kev

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg489813#msg489813
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 01:35:55 am »
We bid 1  :earth pillar.... why are we removing an arsenic from our vault??

Our bid was on time and specific.  My General was not able to post on time so I did so for him per my role as Lieutenant as specified in the rules.
"If one team member is unable to perform his or her duties, the Lieutenant is responsible for performing the job of that team member.  Lieutenants also act as liaison for the Support Team, submitting actions to the Warmasters."
Sorry CCC.  I wrote General three times in the opening post and a couple times in the round thread; as leader of the team the General's only real job is making such strategic decisions and coordinating with Warmasters.  Other teams asked in chat whether other players could submit and I told them no as well.  Also, because Member Roles for the round weren't posted at the time, your team really didn't have a Lieutenant when you first posted.

We'll post a rule revision shortly taking out that middle line from the Lieutenant's role description to avoid any further confusion.  I apologize for the inconvenience. 

Offline Terroking

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg489848#msg489848
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 03:31:10 am »
We bid 1  :earth pillar.... why are we removing an arsenic from our vault??

Our bid was on time and specific.  My General was not able to post on time so I did so for him per my role as Lieutenant as specified in the rules.
"If one team member is unable to perform his or her duties, the Lieutenant is responsible for performing the job of that team member.  Lieutenants also act as liaison for the Support Team, submitting actions to the Warmasters."
Sorry CCC.  I wrote General three times in the opening post and a couple times in the round thread; as leader of the team the General's only real job is making such strategic decisions and coordinating with Warmasters.  Other teams asked in chat whether other players could submit and I told them no as well.  Also, because Member Roles for the round weren't posted at the time, your team really didn't have a Lieutenant when you first posted.

We'll post a rule revision shortly taking out that middle line from the Lieutenant's role description to avoid any further confusion.  I apologize for the inconvenience.

Well... I did have a member roles post up, in the public thread torb had started, but you guys deleted that.

Both me and multiple team members had no idea that it ended pre-deckbuilding deadline, and although it is posted in the event card notes, it's not exactly large print.

I don't expect any sort of mercy here though, we did make a mistake and as such have to be punished. It really hurts that RNG has decided to take one of the most crucial of 299 cards totally at random however.
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Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg489889#msg489889
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 05:00:17 am »
Sorry CCC.  I wrote General three times in the opening post and a couple times in the round thread; as leader of the team the General's only real job is making such strategic decisions and coordinating with Warmasters.  Other teams asked in chat whether other players could submit and I told them no as well.  Also, because Member Roles for the round weren't posted at the time, your team really didn't have a Lieutenant when you first posted.

We'll post a rule revision shortly taking out that middle line from the Lieutenant's role description to avoid any further confusion.  I apologize for the inconvenience. 


I would like to have this issue discussed among the Warmasters and not simply ruled upon by one Warmaster because at its core this is an issue about how the rules function and rulings are made and not just about this single incident.

As the rules were clearly stated at the time of the deadline there was no infraction on the part of our team.  And whether you choose to alter those rules outside of the official rules thread (in chat) before the deadline or actually alter them in the rules thread after the deadline (as you now have) is irrelevant to this case.  As the deadline expired the rules clearly stated a Lt. can act on behalf of any teammate who is unable to fulfill their role themself.  The General's role is a very large and complex one and I think any good General ought to object to your simplification of their varied responsibilities.  Generals also have real lives outside of war which can prevent them from coordinating various things with their own teams or with the warmasters.  That is an important reason why the Lt. role has the "backup" clause and why generals bid high for and fight over strong Lts.  The Lt. is the General whenever the General cannot be present for any reason. 

on a side note
Spoiler for Hidden:
(while I like the ability to change some of the member roles between rounds, I really think the way the change has no been made the rules that have to change to support it totally undermines the Lt role specifically in a way that I think will have a negative impact on Wars to come.  Just think how different Trials apps or War apps with "I was Lt for team such-and-such for 2 rounds in War 5" are from ones with "I was Lt for team such-and-such in War 4")

It was also clearly established that I was the Lt. of my team (at the very least... for this round).  Both publicly (in a thread that was deleted virtually without notice, and as such I cannot produce evidence other than witness testimony) and also in our team forums, to which the warmasters have access:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,38985.msg484463.html#msg484463

If you would like more corroboration it is also in our team chat
Spoiler for Hidden:

So on those grounds I would respectfully request that you enforce the rules as they were and allow us to discard the Earth Pendulum we bid instead of the Arsenic that was chosen at random.

Perhaps more importantly, if this were to happen again now that the rules are changed, I readily admit that I would have no objective ground to dispute to the decision.  But because at the time of the ruling we had done nothing wrong, we are now being penalized for retroactive rule changes, which is a ridiculously dangerous precedent that Warmasters in the past have been very careful to avoid even on issues where the community consensus indicated a rule change was in order.  Rules were observed as stated and then later changed after the round (if desperately needed) or between wars to prevent a similar occurance.  That we need to seek clarification on issues where the rules are already clear makes little sense, and penalizing teams for not seeking such clarifications really changes the dynamic of war.  If other teams had alerted you to ambiguities or loop-holes, why would you wait til after the deadline to address it in the rules and also penalize the teams that read and followed the rules as explicitly written?  And if you want us to err on the side of caution (in an attempt to avoid hyper-legalism like this), then the least we can ask is that you also extend such caution and mercy to teams that break the rules you haven't even posted yet.

I also acknowledge my General admits to making a mistake (not posting the bid himself), and that he has not requested mercy.  I likewise acknowledge he made a mistake, and that requesting mercy is pointless because I acted rightly to correct his mistake (well within the context and rules as they were defined at the time of the non-infraction) and I request that the err on the part of the judge in this case be corrected and justice be done.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 05:04:28 am by CCCombobreaker »
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Offline kev

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg490063#msg490063
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 02:22:03 pm »
snip
Well FWIW I consulted both WMs before posting above.  And you aren't being "punished" in any way.  I'm certainly not undermining the importance of the General position.  In fact just the opposite (and btw Generals had more warning and instruction in their private forum regarding the thread that was deleted "virtually without notice").  The above could've been avoided in a variety of ways.

But this is a stupid argument to be having.  WMs hate this nitpicky bullshit; it's what swept the fun out of the second War.  Go ahead and discard the pendulum instead.  In the future though, it'd be better to ask a WMs in advance rather than contesting a ruling after it has been made.  :)  Remember the pend doesn't have to be removed until after Round 1 duels.

Best of luck this round, Team Earth.

Offline CCCombobreaker

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg490128#msg490128
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 04:40:48 pm »
Thank you.

And if the goal is to avoid "fun sapping not-picky BS", then I think erring on the side of mercy (instead of taking a letter of the law approach) in ambiguous situations would go a long way.  Legalism compounds itself horribly.  I don't like the stress of this sort of thing either, but obviously I won't back down when I have a strong case.
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Offline Terroking

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Re: Round 1 Event Card Bid https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=39219.msg490238#msg490238
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 08:33:03 pm »
Thank you.

And if the goal is to avoid "fun sapping not-picky BS", then I think erring on the side of mercy (instead of taking a letter of the law approach) in ambiguous situations would go a long way.  Legalism compounds itself horribly.  I don't like the stress of this sort of thing either, but obviously I won't back down when I have a strong case.

This. In order for rules to create a fun environment they have to be adaptable. However, this also means that you can't just make up rules to fit whatever bill you require at the moment, as evidenced here.

I think both CCC for making this argument and kev/WMs for relenting, honestly I would never have expected this.
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anything
blarg: