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Jumbalumba

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27077#msg27077
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2010, 10:32:09 pm »
I admit I have not tested this deck but I cannot see how you can "consistently" beat Divine Glory.

First of all, it has 200 HP while you have 100 HP. As you clearly mentioned in your earlier example, if you both had the same amount of attacking creatures/weapons you would both get damaged at the same rate (not counting eclipses). You would have to have double its weapons to kill it at the same rate it is killing you. I recognise that this can very well happen because you have 12/30 chance of drawing a damage-dealing-thing while Divine Glory has a 12/72 chance which is less than half of 12/30 but I would think the chance is too close for any consistency.

Secondly, you state your creatures are cheaper but you don't see that the double draw and the 3* mark makes that point moot. Divine Glory makes more quanta and can also destroy your Towers so it doesn't matter that you get cheaper creatures.

Thirdly, it has Miracles. The only way to consistently avoid Miracles is if you save cards in your hand (which would be at least 2 creatures/weapons or just an eclipse). Now as I mentioned earlier, you have to have double the amount of damage dealing things to actually kill it faster than it kills you. That's more improbable because you need to save cards to avoid it using Miracle.

You stated that Vampire Dagger beats Divine Glory with apparently the same theme. That is entirely incorrect. Firstly, you are really comparing Vampire Daggers + Vampires against Morning Glories only. Secondly, it is hardly the same theme as the entire point of Divine Glory is to kill you with creatures that you can hardly do anything about. Any sort of creature control totally destroys a Vampire deck.

One last point: you are fighting the AI which uses a predetermined deck. Unlike yourself, Divine Glory is far from using the optimal deck. You can see it always has a tonne of Light quanta. It can easily fit in some Light Dragons and/or some Holy Flash. You may think Light Dragons would go against its theme but I consider Light Dragons to be something that you can hardly do anything about. I don't see Light Dragons making this deck worse in virtually any case.

Offline Jangoo

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27098#msg27098
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2010, 11:07:37 pm »

The only deck in which Vampire dagger is "good", is a deck that already has 6 vamps ...
in any other case you might just use a vamp instead.

That is the main reason why Morning Glory and any other weapon is simply better than the dagger ... all DivineGlory beating aside that is.

Offline GlitchTopic starter

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27116#msg27116
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2010, 11:47:12 pm »
First of all, I posted a bare bones version of the deck.  In the true version, cards like dusk mantle would mean he only deals four damage a turn (on average) meaning you could have the exact same amount of creatures and still master it.  Because of the ability "vampire", and the fact that the daggers have almost half the cost of a morning glory, this deck is way faster, and you can get the vampires out you need.

Secondly, I realize he has a triple mark, but that doesn't make my point moot.  Again, in a true version, steals would be added to make it more versatile.  But even with the bare bones version, divine glory is slow.    You can normally have him down to around 115 health before you start losing mastery, and even then, he has a hard time catching up.

Thirdly, any player with half a brain can get around a miracle.  When he gets down to around 75 life, start doing the math.  The computer will not play miracle if it would have more than 10 life the next turn.  In a 30 card deck, you will realistically get an eclipse in the first twenty cards, which is about how many are drawn in an average match.  And even if you don't, you can time the dropping of creatures to make sure it doesn't play it's miracle.

I did state Vampire Dagger beats Divine Glory with apparently the same thing.  That is entirely correct.  Firstly, I could not put twelve Vampire Daggers in my deck like it could, and had to settle for a weaker and almost twice as expensive vampire instead.  Secondly, it's the exact same theme as Divine Glory, which is to spam you with an elemental weapon.  Any sort of creature control doesn't necessarily kill a vampire deck, as this deck was merely meant to show that as a false god, a vampire dagger themed deck would be just as good if not better than morning glory.  I can defend this point by saying the triple mark would allow it to play a vampire dagger a turn, an eclipse would put the vampire daggers at five life, meaning elite otyughs can't get it, and I would probably back the deck up with blessings and miracles of my own. 

One last point:  I realize that the AI isn't that good.  I get it, I had knowledge in my favor.  This entire thread came about because I got tired of everyone making fun of the vampire stiletto like it couldn't do anything, even though I've repeatedly talked about how life link is the key to unlimited healing.  Just give it growth using the rage potion guardian angel combo, or use vampire's tears well.  You can, in a perfect deck, heal 199 health per turn for free.  Emphatic bonds, Jade staffs, the heal spell, not even miracle can give you that.  The ability vampire can.  I know that adding light dragons to the deck would make my entire thread moot, but I just wanted to show an example of vampire dagger working so that people would see it's worth.  Instead, Ivalmian made an entire thread showing how much vampire dagger sucks simply to smite me.  I realize now this was a mistake.

Jumbalumba

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27155#msg27155
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2010, 01:22:35 am »
I guess we have differing opinions on the style of Divine Glory. I think of it more as creatures that can't be touched hitting you to death. Vampire Dagger with Eclipse does make it out of reach of an Elite Otyugh but generally rainbows or other decks have other creature control, e.g., any sort of mutation, or reversal/rewind/eternity which can apply regardless of HP, as well as permanent control to destroy the Eclipse(s).

Offline GlitchTopic starter

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27156#msg27156
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2010, 01:30:16 am »
It was a concept thread, not a deck thread.

ivalmian

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27174#msg27174
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2010, 02:01:21 am »
I know that adding light dragons to the deck would make my entire thread moot, but I just wanted to show an example of vampire dagger working so that people would see it's worth.  Instead, Ivalmian made an entire thread showing how much vampire dagger sucks simply to smite me.  I realize now this was a mistake.
I'm not smiting you! I just wanted to show that most people indeed do not see stiletto as very useful. I agree that your decks beats divine glory.. actually, most agro decks beat divine glory :) (if not any other god)

Anyways, I have nothing against you nor the stilettos, just since you didn't believe me I wanted to show you what the consensus is (and had I been wrong, that would have been fine too).

Offline Baily18

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27263#msg27263
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2010, 01:19:08 pm »
It was a concept thread, not a deck thread.
Then why is it in the deck section?

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27659#msg27659
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2010, 09:37:17 pm »
You say that
Quote
as a false god, a vampire dagger themed deck would be just as good if not better than morning glory
It wouldn't be. The deck would get controled and pwned.
And just because your deck can beat the morning glory deck, it doesn't mean it's better. Plenty of decks, can beat the standard rainbow control deck, but it's still the only one used for FG farming (except the new Nymphomania). Take your deck against a variety of decks and take the glory deck against the same variety of decks. Your would most likely yield a worse result.
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assassim

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27688#msg27688
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2010, 11:05:43 pm »
... RoF target each of the monsters on the field, so the untargetable ones would remain untargetable. Animate weapon doesn't target the weapon at all, it merely sends the current weapon from the weapon slot directly onto the field.

Tea is good

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg27720#msg27720
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2010, 01:54:34 am »
Lol, I'm still never going to make either a vamp dagger deck or a morning glory deck for FGs. Wait forget that. I might make a morning glory deck. Some t50 are pwning with a mono-aether deck. I might just make a Morning Glory deck because it goes on the same principles (immortal Creatures) and miracles intead of Phase Shields

G

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg28207#msg28207
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2010, 11:42:05 pm »
Divine Glory is far from using the optimal deck. You can see it always has a tonne of Light quanta. It can easily fit in some Light Dragons.. ..I consider Light Dragons to be something that you can hardly do anything about. I don't see Light Dragons making this deck worse in virtually any case.
"oprtimizing" divine glory can only be adding more explosions (with a bit of red quanta), morning glory weapons and flyin weapons cards and u're really wrong about the statment in red cuz of parallel universe, antimatter, big otys with boneshield/boneyard/scavenger etc. etc. that means cats and dogs can counter a divine glory deck + unimmoral creatures

edit for grammar im tired :P bb

asf20

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Re: Vampire Dagger versus Morning Glory https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3149.msg31041#msg31041
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2010, 04:26:34 pm »
join the darkside :darkness

 

anything
blarg: