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Offline Polari

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg401238#msg401238
« Reply #84 on: September 29, 2011, 06:40:46 pm »
That's painful to read. I've played a lot with the upped version a lot and unupped half a dozen games the last time I thought the matchup analyses were crap. Here, let's try again.

In general, once you've got your first shield and hourglass, you're on. Once you're rolling, it will only take a few turns to draw your deck, leaving 10 cards or so. Later on you might look into filling your hand with spells and discarding extra Eternity, hourglasses and shields. Once you're set, keep producing time quanta and Fractal for ~5-7 Ghosts. Pay attention to the state of your Pendulums so you don't accidentally break your shield chain with a Fractal. A single Eternity is surprisingly effective in shutting down opposing strategies. Even if they do draw one card a turn, they won't actually be able to do a whole lot. If you ever get them draw- and quanta-locked, that's game right there. Eternity also works as a poor man's Lobo against activated abilities and as a superior Lobo against abilities granted by spells.

Most things you're supposed to do are pretty straightforward to figure out. Two things I'd imagine might not be are that you don't really need more than two or three hourglasses in most matchups, and defensive use of Eternity. Two hourglasses are easily enough to keep your shield chain going and eventually draw your deck, and often you're going to need a large amount of time to go for the kill. By going slow and holding back extra hourglasses you can usually discard some of them and the second Eternity to save quanta, and you'll have your towers running for more turns. Eternity's defensive use is keeping your ghosts active against CC that doesn't instantly kill them. By rewinding and replaying them you can, most commonly, refresh their health against Eagle's Eyes or unfreeze them against squids.
Also: two maximized fractals plus the two original ghosts will produce around 140-150 damage, depending on how stuff you had to hold while fractaling. Add Eternity damage and you don't really care if your ghosts get killed immediately as long as even a few hit twice. Unupped that goes down to around 110 so you'll need to do a bit more, but it's still definitely feasible with smart use of Eternity.

Destiny
Incarnate
Lionheart
Miracle
Morte
Neptune
Paradox
Serket

These are all a piece of cake for the upped version. Morte and Serket are shard-reliant though, the rest were indeed in djhopper's list too. You'll probably want to skip Morte right away, but against Serket, try and see if you can get a shield up fast enough. Sometimes he starts out slow and if you start the chain with, I don't know, maybe 5 poison or less, you should be good. He has no shields and no CC so you can start running out ghosts as soon as you draw them.

For Neptune and Destiny, refer to above. You don't care about rewinds, just draw and replay your ghosts. You don't care about freezes or Eagle's Eye shooting for 3 damage, just rewind them yourself and then draw and replay. 4 of those matches I played with the unupped deck were against Neptune, I went 3-1 winning against an early permafrost and only losing to getting rushed. If you're not doing something very wrong, you'll only lose to getting rushed, and I'm pretty sure Neptune doesn't do that consistently enough to make you "not win this matchup very often".

Elidnis
Ferox
Fire Queen

The feral bond gods. I've played 19 games vs them and never lost (upped). 10 men got similar results against Elidnis and Ferox but only won 55% against FQ; might be luck, might be about doing something differently, I don't know. In any case, I'd be extremely surprised if these were straight-up unwinnable unupped. Ferox might be, but Elidnis doesn't heal that much and doesn't have any CC either. FQ with her 120-card deck is also highly inconsistent, and sometimes you can just keep rewinding her one FFQ indefinitely and win easily.

Akebono
Chaos Lord
Gemini
Osiris
Seism

These are good matchups upped. Akebono is probably bad without shards. Gemini is about 80% upped, I'd expect that to be bad but winnable unupped. Osiris is definitely doable with an early Eternity; until he has more than 9 towers you can just keep rewinding one pharaoh and he'll keep replaying it without getting anything else done. Concede if he gets two pharaohs producing scarabs. Against Seism play only single stacks until he passes the turn with 2 earth unused, then use your judgment. Your goal is to get Eternity going, once he's drawing only one card a turn the rate of earthquakes goes down and you can usually produce enough quanta to do your thing. Against Chaos Lord or anyone else with hard CC, only play out your ghosts if you've got another one in hand to fractal, otherwise dj's summary looks legit.

Dark Matter
Scorpio

These are fairly even upped, probably skip unupped.

Divine Glory
Eternal Phoenix
Graviton
Hecate
Hermes
Octane

The gods with PC. One of this deck's strong points is that you have so many permanents that you often get an hourglass to stick, and then just overwhelm them. No idea how the unupped version plays against these, but with 10 men going 10-2, 17-7, 8-10, 15-3, 11-6 and 8-10 against these (respectively), it's hard to imagine them being completely hopeless unupped.

Jezebel
Rainbow
Dream Catcher
Obliterator
Decay

Bad upped, probably hopeless unupped. The deckout plan against Jezebel might be worth trying though, see this (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22028.msg331182#msg331182).

Offline Djhopper :)Topic starter

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg401658#msg401658
« Reply #85 on: September 30, 2011, 04:01:46 pm »
That's painful to read. I've played a lot with the upped version a lot and unupped half a dozen games the last time I thought the matchup analyses were crap. Here, let's try again.
In general, once you've got your first shield and hourglass, you're on. Once you're rolling, it will only take a few turns to draw your deck, leaving 10 cards or so. Later on you might look into filling your hand with spells and discarding extra Eternity, hourglasses and shields. Once you're set, keep producing time quanta and Fractal for ~5-7 Ghosts. Pay attention to the state of your Pendulums so you don't accidentally break your shield chain with a Fractal. A single Eternity is surprisingly effective in shutting down opposing strategies. Even if they do draw one card a turn, they won't actually be able to do a whole lot. If you ever get them draw- and quanta-locked, that's game right there. Eternity also works as a poor man's Lobo against activated abilities and as a superior Lobo against abilities granted by spells.

Most things you're supposed to do are pretty straightforward to figure out. Two things I'd imagine might not be are that you don't really need more than two or three hourglasses in most matchups, and defensive use of Eternity. Two hourglasses are easily enough to keep your shield chain going and eventually draw your deck, and often you're going to need a large amount of time to go for the kill. By going slow and holding back extra hourglasses you can usually discard some of them and the second Eternity to save quanta, and you'll have your towers running for more turns. Eternity's defensive use is keeping your ghosts active against CC that doesn't instantly kill them. By rewinding and replaying them you can, most commonly, refresh their health against Eagle's Eyes or unfreeze them against squids.
Also: two maximized fractals plus the two original ghosts will produce around 140-150 damage, depending on how stuff you had to hold while fractaling. Add Eternity damage and you don't really care if your ghosts get killed immediately as long as even a few hit twice. Unupped that goes down to around 110 so you'll need to do a bit more, but it's still definitely feasible with smart use of Eternity.

Destiny
Incarnate
Lionheart
Miracle
Morte
Neptune
Paradox
Serket

These are all a piece of cake for the upped version. Morte and Serket are shard-reliant though, the rest were indeed in djhopper's list too. You'll probably want to skip Morte right away, but against Serket, try and see if you can get a shield up fast enough. Sometimes he starts out slow and if you start the chain with, I don't know, maybe 5 poison or less, you should be good. He has no shields and no CC so you can start running out ghosts as soon as you draw them.

For Neptune and Destiny, refer to above. You don't care about rewinds, just draw and replay your ghosts. You don't care about freezes or Eagle's Eye shooting for 3 damage, just rewind them yourself and then draw and replay. 4 of those matches I played with the unupped deck were against Neptune, I went 3-1 winning against an early permafrost and only losing to getting rushed. If you're not doing something very wrong, you'll only lose to getting rushed, and I'm pretty sure Neptune doesn't do that consistently enough to make you "not win this matchup very often".

Elidnis
Ferox
Fire Queen

The feral bond gods. I've played 19 games vs them and never lost (upped). 10 men got similar results against Elidnis and Ferox but only won 55% against FQ; might be luck, might be about doing something differently, I don't know. In any case, I'd be extremely surprised if these were straight-up unwinnable unupped. Ferox might be, but Elidnis doesn't heal that much and doesn't have any CC either. FQ with her 120-card deck is also highly inconsistent, and sometimes you can just keep rewinding her one FFQ indefinitely and win easily.

Akebono
Chaos Lord
Gemini
Osiris
Seism

These are good matchups upped. Akebono is probably bad without shards. Gemini is about 80% upped, I'd expect that to be bad but winnable unupped. Osiris is definitely doable with an early Eternity; until he has more than 9 towers you can just keep rewinding one pharaoh and he'll keep replaying it without getting anything else done. Concede if he gets two pharaohs producing scarabs. Against Seism play only single stacks until he passes the turn with 2 earth unused, then use your judgment. Your goal is to get Eternity going, once he's drawing only one card a turn the rate of earthquakes goes down and you can usually produce enough quanta to do your thing. Against Chaos Lord or anyone else with hard CC, only play out your ghosts if you've got another one in hand to fractal, otherwise dj's summary looks legit.

Dark Matter
Scorpio

These are fairly even upped, probably skip unupped.

Divine Glory
Eternal Phoenix
Graviton
Hecate
Hermes
Octane

The gods with PC. One of this deck's strong points is that you have so many permanents that you often get an hourglass to stick, and then just overwhelm them. No idea how the unupped version plays against these, but with 10 men going 10-2, 17-7, 8-10, 15-3, 11-6 and 8-10 against these (respectively), it's hard to imagine them being completely hopeless unupped.

Jezebel
Rainbow
Dream Catcher
Obliterator
Decay

Bad upped, probably hopeless unupped. The deckout plan against Jezebel might be worth trying though, see this (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22028.msg331182#msg331182).
Just to check, are you talking about my analysis? 'Coz I can't see why you're in any position to talk after six games. (Then again, I have a feeling I may have been mistaken?)


You don't care about freezes or Eagle's Eye shooting for 3 damage, just rewind them yourself and then draw and replay. 4 of those matches I played with the unupped deck were against Neptune, I went 3-1 winning against an early permafrost and only losing to getting rushed. If you're not doing something very wrong, you'll only lose to getting rushed, and I'm pretty sure Neptune doesn't do that consistently enough to make you "not win this matchup very often".
Neptune has:

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gk 7gm 7gm 7gm 7gm 7gn 7gp 7gp 7gr 7gr 7gr 7gr 7gs 7gt 7gt 7h1 7h1 7h1 7h1 7n5 7n7 7n7 7n7 7n7 7n7 7n7 8pr

12 Shock-waves,
2 Eagle eyes,
8 Indundations,
8 Artic Octupai,
4 Permafrosts
and 2 congeals.

You can only rewind once every turn. Either everything will die, the squids will lock you down or you will win. The latter doesn't happen often.

The feral bond gods. I've played 19 games vs them and never lost (upped). 10 men got similar results against Elidnis and Ferox but only won 55% against FQ; might be luck, might be about doing something differently, I don't know. In any case, I'd be extremely surprised if these were straight-up unwinnable unupped. Ferox might be, but Elidnis doesn't heal that much and doesn't have any CC either. FQ with her 120-card deck is also highly inconsistent, and sometimes you can just keep rewinding her one FFQ indefinitely and win easily.
FFQ: Fire bolts kill you un-upped. (no healing)

Ferox: Too much healing for un-upped.

Elidnis: Looking at her deck, I can see how you could beat her; yet in my experience, that is yet to happen.

Akebono
Chaos Lord
Gemini
Osiris
Seism

These are good matchups upped. Akebono is probably bad without shards. Gemini is about 80% upped, I'd expect that to be bad but winnable unupped. Osiris is definitely doable with an early Eternity; until he has more than 9 towers you can just keep rewinding one pharaoh and he'll keep replaying it without getting anything else done. Concede if he gets two pharaohs producing scarabs. Against Seism play only single stacks until he passes the turn with 2 earth unused, then use your judgment. Your goal is to get Eternity going, once he's drawing only one card a turn the rate of earthquakes goes down and you can usually produce enough quanta to do your thing. Against Chaos Lord or anyone else with hard CC, only play out your ghosts if you've got another one in hand to fractal, otherwise dj's summary looks legit.
Akebono: Yup.

Gemini: Either you get outrushed, dim-shield chained, unstopabled before you draw eternity or momentum-TU-bombed.

Osiris: Seriously? There's no way you're getting out eternity early enough unupped.

Seism: I agree that he's playable, but you fail to mention the fact that if, once you're rolling, he draws two more EQ's in the entire game, then bye bye pendulums and bye bye chance at victory.

Chaos Lord: Why would you play a ghost on its own? It will do more damage if you save it to play with the others.


Divine Glory
Eternal Phoenix
Graviton
Hecate
Hermes
Octane

The gods with PC. One of this deck's strong points is that you have so many permanents that you often get an hourglass to stick, and then just overwhelm them. No idea how the unupped version plays against these, but with 10 men going 10-2, 17-7, 8-10, 15-3, 11-6 and 8-10 against these (respectively), it's hard to imagine them being completely hopeless unupped.
Divine Glory: Even if you surive the opening onslaught, you still have to deal with deck-out when she destroys your eternity and starts playing miracles.

Eternal Phoenix: She's FAST. If you get your dim-shield chain going whilst she's explodernatoring you, then she'll be able to do the rest of the damage with fire bolts.

Graviton: Momentum always gets at least one hit. His guys get pretty darn massive.

Hecate: Direct damage. Ouch. Healing is good.

Hermes: With all those lances?

Octane: EPIC LOL! (Unstable gas)


You may have a certain level of expertise, but it isn't with this version of the deck.

Offline Polari

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg401847#msg401847
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2011, 11:18:02 pm »
I might not have much experience with the unupped deck, but I've played the upped one a lot and I've got some idea about the difference between the two versions. My hunches might be off about many of the matchups I haven't tested, but at least I'm pretty sure Neptune is a great matchup. Like I said, I played four games against him, which isn't a lot, but I did face the early permafrost and won through it exactly the same way as with the upped version, and I have no reason to assume that was a fluke. If you start out slow and just keep building up mana, at some point he'll have a hand full of CC and you'll completely lock him with Eternity. Only play out your ghosts once you've got enough saved up. At that point he'll kill some of them by unloading all the stuff he had in his 7 cards, but you'll have the second fractal coming and an Eternity keeping at the very least one ghost functional. In the few games I've played I had no problem finishing even when Neptune played a permafrost before I had dealt a single point of damage, and I can't imagine how he could completely stop you unless you're doing something wrong.

While writing this post, at this point I was bored enough to open up trainer and do some testing to back myself up. I started out with Elidnis. Won the first game. Second one I died to three poison, would have been easy if I played a single shard. Won the third. Conclusion: definitely not a skip. Then I tried Osiris. The first game played out like many others I've experienced with the upped version of this deck and other time-based FG grinders: he started out with 3 time towers, then played turtle shield and an Eternity before his first pharaoh. I happened to have an opening hand with a lot of mana and an Eternity, so by that time I had my weapon out and kept rewinding a pharaoh every turn. Eventually he drew enough towers to get a second one out, but he died before he got 5 scarabs out. Second game I had a mana-light draw and conceded early. Third game I get a solid draw but Osiris has a great one: a hand full of towers and no shields or weapons to slow himself down with. He gets a couple of pharaohs out before I start rewinding stuff and it looks hopeless, but I still play it out for kicks. In the end I get him down to 69. Conclusion: not a good matchup, but you'll know whether you're going to lose early, so conceding on the spot would be foolish.

Lastly I tried Divine Glory. You mentioned it's a problem that he starts playing miracles? Have you ever played any established deck against gods with miracles? No, you don't just run out all the damage you can and hope you'll punch through. You play out a small amount of damage and then unleash a one turn kill once they are in range. Actually, you do mention that in your guide on Miracle, so why on earth would you not do that against DG? Anyway, first game I start out slow, but he chokes on swords with not enough animates and explosions with no fire mana and never does anything relevant. Lucky? Yes. Unusual? No, not really, DG does that at times. Second game he does draw burning towers and explosions, but I let him burn them on towers. Once I'm at 20 life (with 3 swords out) I unload my hourglasses at once with a shield and get going. Eternities and hourglasses soak up the explosions he draws from this point on and I win leisurely. Conclusion: I expected I'd win maybe one game in three so 2-0 is probably lucky, but who knows, if 10 men can go 10-2 in this matchup upped, maybe it's actually pretty good unupped too. In any case, definitely not a skip. Other gods with PC, I don't know, but for the record, I never said I thought they'd all be this good. I have no delusions about Octane being winnable, for one.

Oh, and a couple of specific things:

Chaos Lord: Why would you play a ghost on its own? It will do more damage if you save it to play with the others.
On this one I was mostly referring to this -
He has little CC, so play ghosts as soon as you can unless he draws a Maxwell’s demon.
- and my point was that you shouldn't risk getting your ghost killed unless you can afford it. Anyway, Chaos Lord doesn't have any healing, so an early ghost that gets to hit for a few turns can easily be worth it, especially if you have an Eternity to protect it against a single demon. Also I forgot this about Lionheart in my previous post; I've never focused on the deckout plan against him with any deck, but I think someone said that Lionheart could now rewind to keep himself alive at times. If the deckout plan works 100% then disregard this. If it doesn't, I'd like to point out that it's not only possible but even quite easy to win with damage against him, and I'd always try to do that unless he gets his scarab production running very quickly, which doesn't happen often.

Frankly, while I respect you for coming up with a very good deck, looking at your posts in this thread, it looks like you're far off on how it should actually be played.

Offline gumbeh

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg402095#msg402095
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2011, 12:21:35 pm »
Neptune is a great matchup.
Sure, a lot of damage can be dealt to him for one turn...
...but he wields the power of the Permasquid Shield. Which far outlasts dimension shields.

Offline Polari

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg402117#msg402117
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2011, 01:20:00 pm »
All right, so I opened up trainer again, intending to snap a few screenshots of playing against a permafrost shield. The first game against Neptune started nicely enough. I had already mentally chalked up a victory and was wondering if the next one would better suited for demonstration.


But then only a few turns later Neptune plays a permafrost!


Note that I've already drawn 4 shields at this point and eventually I'll draw all of them before seeing my first fractal. So much for being able to empty my hand. Then again, I'm not exactly in a bind here as I've spent my mana on rewinding some crawlers and a dragon instead of burning it on extra hourglasses. Also note that I've discarded a couple of those to save mana.


To get the most out of my fractal I've been saving up mana up to this point and I'm timing it for the same turn as my fourth shield, resulting in 6 ghosts generated with 9 turns left.


At this point Neptune has 81 life left and half my field frozen, but I've still got a few ghosts hitting and two waiting in hand. Remember that even if he permafreezes everything, I'll still deal 7 damage a turn by rewinding a frozen ghost and playing a fresh one (including Eternity damage). Also every ghost generated deals 5 on the turn it comes into play, at the very least. It adds up.


(lol, imgur named the victory pic YROCK)

I'm willing to entertain the notion that being 4-1 against Neptune with the unupped version is atypical, but in that screenshot you've even got a lot of your deck upped, most notably the ghosts which means 2 extra damage from each of them, making this whole ordeal so much easier. The upped version I'm familiar with and with it I've got 10 EM wins vs Neptune out of 10 games played. 10 men's stats are 9 EM wins out of 9 games played. I think that one's a closed case.

Offline gumbeh

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg402124#msg402124
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2011, 01:59:42 pm »
I have more trouble with the multiple squids keeping my entire field congealed. I'm about 50/50 on wins/losses.

Are you keeping Neptune's quanta low by rewinding dragons? Why isn't your entire field frozen?

Offline Djhopper :)Topic starter

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg402148#msg402148
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2011, 03:18:22 pm »
I have more trouble with the multiple squids keeping my entire field congealed. I'm about 50/50 on wins/losses.

Are you keeping Neptune's quanta low by rewinding dragons? Why isn't your entire field frozen?
Hmmm... I think I've been playing this match-up a bit wrong. I'd expect something at about 25% win-rate. Time to rewrite...

Yeah, even I rewind dragons. Entire field not being frozen is almost pure luck though, even with eterntiy.

EDIT:  Decided to try what you did on trainer:

Game One:
Uh oh!There's no way I'm getting through that thing...
Game 2: Started chaining on more than 20 health. Got shock-waved even though I tried to draw the fire with my first factal


Game 3: Ran out of shields. (Would have been locked down anyway)

 




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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg403821#msg403821
« Reply #91 on: October 04, 2011, 03:03:43 am »
this decks kinda slow but its beast. imma work on upgrading

Offline Djhopper :)Topic starter

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg416016#msg416016
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2011, 02:19:26 pm »
this decks kinda slow but its beast. imma work on upgrading
Yeah. 'Tis beast.

Don't underestimate it just because of the 10% stats, it should be soooo much higher!

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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg416066#msg416066
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2011, 05:21:58 pm »
Hmmm... I think I've been playing this match-up a bit wrong. I'd expect something at about 25% win-rate. Time to rewrite...

Yeah, even I rewind dragons. Entire field not being frozen is almost pure luck though, even with eterntiy.

EDIT:  Decided to try what you did on trainer:

Game One:
Uh oh!There's no way I'm getting through that thing...
Game 2: Started chaining on more than 20 health. Got shock-waved even though I tried to draw the fire with my first factal


Game 3: Ran out of shields. (Would have been locked down anyway)

 
why would you wait till the last 2-3 turns to fractal? From playing this deck upped at least, I find it is far better to fractal if you have the chance early and the damage builds up quickly, then when one is sniped you rewind it and redraw it with hourglass. I personally think the only hard thing about neptune is inundation. Also I find when you start chaining dim shields and you life is low, neptune uses up most of her shockwaves on you directly instead of your creatures
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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg416472#msg416472
« Reply #94 on: October 27, 2011, 01:12:18 pm »
why would you wait till the last 2-3 turns to fractal? From playing this deck upped at least, I find it is far better to fractal if you have the chance early and the damage builds up quickly, then when one is sniped you rewind it and redraw it with hourglass. I personally think the only hard thing about neptune is inundation. Also I find when you start chaining dim shields and you life is low, neptune uses up most of her shockwaves on you directly instead of your creatures
The strategy I go by is that if you are drawing faster than him (which you should be) then you are drawing more creatures than he is CC until you can overpower him, with some ghosts getting killed but enough surviving to finish him. The more bodies, the less likely they all are to die.

Well he beat me 3-0 without using a single indundation :(

Don't leave it too late though! (Just look at game two: He has crap-loads of those shock-waves)









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Re: Fast-Draw False-God Killer [un-upped] [time] [aether] [awesome] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=29973.msg471639#msg471639
« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2012, 08:49:10 am »
Is this still useable

 

anything
blarg: