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Offline HyroenTopic starter

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Synergy Factor [Phase 2: Showdown] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280489#msg280489
« on: February 28, 2011, 10:09:03 pm »
Whether you're a newcomer or a veteran, the word synergy is one of utmost importance in the game, and should be in your vocabulary.

Synergy, as defined by Merriam-Webster is as follows:
Quote
a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements (as resources or efforts) (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synergy)
Elemental synergy is seen on many occasions in Elements the Game, in its decks and in its strategy; and even when there appears to be little to no synergy between elements, ingenuity kicks in and can find some way to make it happen.

Sometimes, when community members get creative, "unorthodox", built-in synergies may appear, and be proposed to the community in the Card Ideas and Art board as a brand new card idea. This could present a new metagame-dependent factor, which will influence card balancing. Theoretically, should cards promoting obscure synergies deserve a bonus?

Pondering upon this question led me to wonder if all synergies should be equal and accounted for. Should all synergies exist and be equally strong? Should each element have the same amount of "strong", "fair" and "weak" synergies as the other elements? Should there instead be recurring thematic, elemental synergies which are promoted and expanded?

I then realized that my opinions did not have to speak alone. Together we can bring to life and analyze qualitatively, and maybe even quantitatively the relative values of elemental dual synergies.


PHASE 1: VOX POPULI

To get this started I would like to start with Phase 1: Vox Populi. Here's how it should work:

When you respond to this topic during Phase 1, follow this format:
Quote
[general reaction about this thread, please do NOT explicitly comment which synergies you find to be strong, fair or weak]

[Here below you post the synergies you find to be Strongest, Weakest, and most representative of Fair or average:]
  • Strong Synergy 1
  • Strong Synergy 2
  • Strong Synergy 3
  • Fair Synergy 1
  • Fair Synergy 2
  • Fair Synergy 3
  • Weak Synergy 1
  • Weak Synergy 2
  • Weak Synergy 3
This format is taken such that people are not easily influenced.

Please make your best attempt to think for yourself of 3 Strong, Fair and Weak synergies so that a better picture can come from the community. Later on, you can go back and see what the rest of your friends had to say.

A voting process to analyze the 132 Dual-Element Synergies is unfeasible and therefore I propose this new method.
  • Phase 1: Vox Populi will classify, and possibly order the strength of dual-element synergies according to the way the community perceives it. Phase 1 will also attempt to judge how many points of bonus, if any, obscure synergies deserve when they are integrated into new cards.
  • Phase 2: Showdown will present the information obtained from Vox Populi and attempt to display in order the current strength of Dual-Element Synergies. This will then be divided into a spectrum ranging from Strongest to Weakest and will go on to be divided into a point system. If Vox Populi shows that it would be wise to assign bonuses to obscure synergies then Phase 3: Bonus Round will follow.
  • Phase 3: Bonus Round if necessary, will assign an amount of bonus points appropriate to the strength of the Dual-Element synergy in mind.
This project has the aim of analyzing whether a possible bonus to cards promoting obscure synergies is appropriate, greatly affecting the field of Card Balancing and whether synergies should all be equal or if recurring themes should emerge.

Enjoy and discuss. ^_^

Poll has ended, thank you for your input.
PHASE 2: SHOWDOWN

Firstly I'd like to thank all those who voted and voiced their opinions on Strong, Fair and Weak Synergies. The following were the results:

Strong: 
  • 2 :aether :darkness
  • 2 :earth :time
  • 1 :aether :fire
  • 1 :aether :light
  • 1 :air :fire
  • 1 :earth :fire
  • 1 :earth :gravity
  • 1 :entropy :fire
  • 1 :entropy :gravity
  • 1 :fire :gravity
Fair:
  • 2 :entropy :gravity
  • 2 :gravity :time
  • 1 :aether :darkness
  • 1 :air :fire
  • 1 :air :life
  • 1 :air :light
  • 1 :air :water
  • 1 :darkness :light
  • 1 :death :earth
  • 1 :death :gravity
  • 1 :earth :gravity
  • 1 :fire :water
  • 1 :light :time
Weak:
  • 2 :gravity :life
  • 1 :air :time
  • 1 :gravity :water
  • 1 :life :time
Unfortunately the lack of many replies didn't help create a clear picture of which synergies can be considered what. There was however some agreement as to synergies that are strong to semi strong, and a good conclusion of what synergies are weak. Fair synergies were a broad topic, at times including some which were considered strong.
Strength Order:
1st Rank: :earth :time
2nd Rank: :aether :fire, :aether :light, :earth :fire, :entropy :fire, :fire :gravity
3rd Rank: :aether :darkness
4th Rank: :air :fire, :earth :gravity
5th Rank: :entropy :gravity
6th Rank: :gravity :time
7th Rank: :air :life, :air :light, :air :water, :darkness :light, :death :earth, :death :gravity, :fire :water, :light :time
8th Rank: :air :time, :gravity :water, :life :time
9th Rank: :gravity :life
My main concern is that 27 out of 132 Dual Element combinations were analyzed, what of the other 105?

Also, a new poll is up.

Do classic weak synergies deserve a bonus when considering design?
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280491#msg280491
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 10:12:11 pm »
Okay, first OT's New Design Theory, and now this? Looks like the card designer experts are on the rise. ^_^

Anyway, I'm definitley looking forward to what this turns out to be.

NOTE: Just because I place one sync ahead of the other does not determine my elemental preferences.

Strong Synegry -
1.   :light:aether Two words - RoL / Hope . 
2.  :earth:time *points at Graboid* One of the strongest cards in the game, which is augmented by cards like Earthquake, Reverse Time, Precognition, BB, etc... The :earth / :time sync comes out pretty powerful just because of this one card.
3.   :gravity:earth Had BB not delayed a creature for 6 turns, this would be at the top of my list. It is currently the only element with PC on a stick, has one of the best CC's in the game, can counter shields, and has denial from both elements.  The reason I say Light / Aether and Earth / Time are better is because RoL is a creature not a permanent + Hope is immaterial, and a bunch of burrowed shriekers usually can't get eaten by a petrified Otyugh.

Fair Synergies (Mainly a continuation of the strong list IMHO)-
1.  :darkness:aether . One word - Pestal.
2.  :entropy:gravity Is fair-ly strong (if you'll excuse the idiocy of that statement), as it can disrupt quanta and drain it later with Black Hole. However, wild Sanctuaries have been spotted latley so this combo is weakened by that.
3. :water / :fire Steam Machine is 1337. Now if only people didn't use SoRs so much.

Weak Synegry (Weakest to Fairest,1-3) -
Leaving this blank ATM because my current thoughts have seemed to spark users telling me "But what about this?!?!"
Anyway, ^this will definitley change over time as more opinions are spoken, so I'll edit my original post accordingly. 

Offline HyroenTopic starter

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280510#msg280510
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 10:27:50 pm »
Please spoiler so that your opinion does not easily influence that of others.

EDIT: And as a general message to everyone, try not to let the opinions of others influence your choices. Initial ideas of what strong, fair and weak mean to you are very important. There is no correct answer to this.

What first pops into your head is what we're looking for here.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280524#msg280524
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 10:42:29 pm »
This is a good topic to discuss. Thank you Hyroen.

When just considering the primary game I do not think equal or even proportionate synergies across elements are needed provided a sufficiently large set of competitive deck styles exist. But this refers to what must exist we should also consider what would be ideal. (see paragraph after next)

When considering War the importance of proportionate or perhaps even equal distribution of dual element synergy seems to be required. This could be dealt with through banning and restrictions but that is not ideal.

Having more strong synergies in less cards promotes a much greater number of options per lines of code. This means that the game can get better faster. So having some type of even distribution of synergies seems like it would be a good idea.

I personally think that attempting to enforce an equal synergy for every elemental pairing might be too intrusive to creativity. However promotions that are not force would probably be sufficient to achieve a sufficient success.

It would also be good to define what we mean by strong, fair and weak. What variable are we measuring? Are we measuring versatility of elemental duos? Perhaps the win potential of the most powerful example of a duo? Am I off base and instead we are measuring specific combos rather than whole element?
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Offline Ekki

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280566#msg280566
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 11:24:47 pm »
Well, I'm partially lost with this thread. When you speak about "Strong/Fair/Weak Synergies" I guess you mean the cards, do you? Because since this is the CI&A board, I'm tempted to think that it's about Card Making. Whatever, making a list and letting people comment on the power of different synergies sounds like the way to go.
About the "bonuses", I think it could be the other way around, and vice-versa... Strong synergies get nerfs, and Weak ones get buffs. You can think about: low cost Creatures+Fractal; scorps ( :death and  :time)+buffs (upped :entropy:gravity and  :light); Quintescence+Strong Mortal Creatures. You'll see that if the Combo is OP, generally it gets nerfed, or isn't implemented in the game, while other combos (Feral Bond+Creature Spamming, any form of freezing+Shockwave; high-hp'd-creature combos) constantly get buffs because little people uses them. This can be applied to elements instead of skills, hope you get it.
Here I go in my opinion of some synergies:
 :fire/ :aether (Fractal Phoenixes, Fire Bolt Stall, high CC stalling+TU, and even ImmoSparks)
 :fire/ :earth (Lava Golems FTW, EQ+Control, ImmoGemfinders+Graboids is sooo cool)
 :darkness/ :aether (Devtal and his >9000 variations, both are really versatile elements)
 :earth/ :time (Graboids someone? Also Rewinds+EQ and lots of variations in between can be added to the list)
 :earth/ :entropy (this is somewhere between Strong and Fair. NobaBoids+Lycans/Discord/BB are nasty; Discord+EQ is Evil, but other than that is fair-ish)
 :water/ :death (how to skip this one? Well, it's indeed powerful, but speed poison is not much of a threat and can be easily outrushed)
 :light/ :life (all those variations of pepoker, with Luciferine/Hope/Adrenaline/Mitosis+Bonds and the fact that they are both healing elements makes some kickass combos, but neither of them can be OP, they're just powerful)
 :entropy/ :gravity (yes, it's just Fair to me... Discord BH is the only strong synergy, and you can counter it easily with Sanctuary)
 :death/ :earth (good stalls, not really powerful, but useful)
 :air/ :water (just fair, heavy in CC)
 :air/ :fire (UG+stall is awesome, Flying Farenheits stall can be nasty, but this are not OP, just balanced duos)
 :water/ :fire (Steam machine buff someone? Also both good with CC/PC for stalling)
 :earth/ :gravity (well, never actually knew much about this combo, but it has a lot of stall power, and Catapults+BB is just awesome)
 :time/ :light (Dune Scorps+Blessings; Sundials+Precogs for infinite draw power, just fair because of a little good combos)
 :darkness/ :light (Blessed Vamps; Blessed Vamp Daggers+Crusaders; Vamp Light Dragons, mainly vamp combos, but they're cool and versatile)
 :time/ :air (Flying Eternities? Too weak/slow, heavy on Time quanta, dunno what else)
 :life/ :gravity (Just isn't good or I'm missing something)
 :gravity/ :water (^^The same)
I'm afraid I could be missing something, so I'll end up here.
The lists aren't ranked, they are just in the order they came up to my mind. IDK if we should add only 3 elements per group, but I believe if we divide them by Strong/Fair/Weak, having a cap of elements per group is sort of silly. We could just make a ranking and forget about the qualifications...
I've treated synergies by comparison with any other deck. I mean, a fair synergy can be competitive against a free deckstyle opponent, and a strong one can just smash most strategies.
You could say "Then most synergies would be weak, since a duo is weaker than a mono". I made a short Weak list because I might skip some strategies if I risked to add some couples. And duos aren't less powerful than monos, they're more unstable, at the price of more versatility. I believe most duos can be competitive, and even be a great choice for tournaments, even before Rainbows.

I also tried make some explanations of why some elements are synergic and that stuff:
Most  :aether synergies can be too nasty. Quint, Fractal, TU are cards that work better outside  :aether, that's why it's so synergic, and why most cards get nerfs/tweaks to avoid being OP with TU/Fractal. Not to mention some fair/strong synergies with Mindgate or Dimmensional Shield.
 :fire and  :entropy are also very synergic because of Nova/Immolation, since they make splashing easier, and that+mark can turn a deck in a duo that doesn't matters about activated abilities' element (see Graboids, Lycans and Mind Flayers).
 :air, :time and  :death can have lots of fair synergies. Dune scorp+Rewinds can get along with most buffy and Denial elements, Poison is great for heavy stall decks, and Flying Weapons+any elemental weapon is a good combo.
The elements that have buffs get a +1 in synergy for their combo with 0 hp creatures or 0 attack with attack activated skills (scorps). Those are  :earth (only hp),  :entropy:gravity and  :light.
A CC power ranking can be useful too, since CC is a must in some combos, and can turn a duo into a kickass duo.
Elements with PC and their respective PC power must be taken in account, since it also helps against stalls.
Last but not least, we should have a list of which creatures have duo skills, and maybe even rank them (if we have time), to help the analysis.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel this can be very important.
Don't be discouraged if little people post/care about this topic. I will go on brainstorming until we reach something/anything :D

Offline HyroenTopic starter

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280599#msg280599
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2011, 12:08:15 am »
This thread definitely has to do with Card Making seeing as us Cardmakers at times create cards which include synergies.

When it comes down to cards themselves, it's hard to make cards incorporate 3 Elements in one. And even if there are, or will be, they will be hard to use. If anything you might see a card incorporating 2 elements and an indirect synergy with :death Death (as an example) if the skill adds more death effects to the game.

This is why when it comes down to making cards, we should consider which synergies are already "strong" as is and if we want to add to it or detract from it and make new ones. This also brings up the question of strength, what do I mean by "strong", "fair", and "weak"? These terms are of course just guidelines but refer to how often the synergy between two elements leads to a victory. Strong, fair and weak synergies have a strong, fair and weak correlation, respectively, to a high win rate.

Could you see these two cards as equally powerful?
Air CreatureEarth Creature
4 :air4 :earth
3 | 33 | 3
:earth Growth
Air creature gains + 2 | + 2
:time Growth
Earth Creature gains + 2 | + 2
Should they theoretically be treated as equals? Can you see them as being treated equally in the future? Does one deserve a bonus?

Answers to these questions I hope will lie in this thread some time soon.


EDIT: I also added a new option in the poll I may have overlooked with such a rigid view of the matter. You are free to change your vote if you wish.
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Offline Ekki

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280615#msg280615
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 12:34:17 am »
This thread definitely has to do with Card Making seeing as us Cardmakers at times create cards which include synergies.

[...]

This is why when it comes down to making cards, we should consider which synergies are already "strong" as is and if we want to add to it or detract from it and make new ones. This also brings up the question of strength, what do I mean by "strong", "fair", and "weak"? These terms are of course just guidelines but refer to how often the synergy between two elements leads to a victory. Strong, fair and weak synergies have a strong, fair and weak correlation, respectively, to a high win rate.

[...]
OK then, I get it... IDK why I didn't think of this before, maybe I was too excited about the topic.
Whatever, I think making a ranking of synergies between elements isn't that useful for Card Making. I think Card Making should focus on direct synergies that card you're making has with others, and then look at how much synergy do the elements have indirectly, by imagining the card in a deck.
Maybe we should focus in synergies between skills-elements, as one step before creatures. We must think of the trees before we think of the forest, don't we?
That way, you could propose a skill (or say a created one) and rate its synergy with other element/skill/element-skill. I'm bad explaining stuff, but discussion will help me explain myself better.

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280619#msg280619
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 12:44:07 am »
Thanks for the clarification Hyroen

Air CreatureEarth Creature
4 :air4 :earth
3 | 33 | 3
:earth Growth
Air creature gains + 2 | + 2
:time Growth
Earth Creature gains + 2 | + 2
Could you see these two cards as equally powerful?
Should they theoretically be treated as equals? Can you see them as being treated equally in the future? Does one deserve a bonus?
Currently the Air/Earth grower is fractionally worse than the Earth/Time grower at the deck level. Is it a significant difference at this time? Possibly. If it is the case it would probably be an imperceptible adjustment like +1hp.
However as time passes the equal strength synergies will become available and in that future the two creatures would be close enough to be identical (other factors like redundancy aside).

NOTE: I am not a good judge of actual strength of synergies despite my reputation on the theoretical side.

Strong Synegry
1.  :aether :darkness (Fractal + Devourer, Steal + Lightning, Steal + Mindgate)
2.  :fire :entropy (Immolation and Nova are also a great enablers for speed decks)
Fair Synergies
1.  :light :air (Constructed Synergy: Blessing, Pegasus, Dive, Wyrm, Blitz)
2.  :time :gravity (Constructed Synergy: Scarab)
Weak Synegry
1.  :life :gravity (They share a creature focus but at different optimal speeds)
2.  :life :time (Again different optimal speeds)

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Offline az4rel

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280699#msg280699
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2011, 02:45:23 am »
ok i'll do as the oppening sais and post my ideas an then read the other posts if I say someting stupid plesae dont kill me,

gravity+fire. high hp creatures + rage + momentum + fire shield and maybe sometimes deflag and the fire dragon.
entropy + gravity. discord + black hole! cc in a stick for low hp and high attack creatures and antimater or gravity pull sure can get rid of any kind of treat. and butterfly wings.
fire + air specially upped...

air+ life with the fire queen leading, amassing air cc and damage, life heal, and duo  creature spam + life alchemy card.
death+ gravity  death abilities+poison and gravity oty treburchet and acceleration bring both more death triggers and damage.
time+ grav   buffed dune scorps Pharaoh's scarabs and treburchet for those scarabs. 
got no idea once tried fire darkness with voodoo and rage but didnt like it, wored better adding PU

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280702#msg280702
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 02:52:12 am »
@OldTrees: What makes you say the Air / Earth one is better?
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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280708#msg280708
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 03:02:51 am »
Huh.  I'm the only one who voted for recurring themes.

I was thinking more along the lines of series that all have synergy with each other.  The scorpion series, the nymph series, the weapon series, and other such things, all brought together by cards like nymph's queen, animate weapon, crusader, and scorpion lord.  There could also be series designed to gap the lack of synergy between opposite elements, or exacerbate them.

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Re: Synergy Factor [Phase 1: Vox Populi] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21879.msg280715#msg280715
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2011, 03:27:26 am »
@OldTrees: What makes you say the Air / Earth one is better?
A typo. Fixed. If they were both airborne then Air might be tied or better but as they stand Earth/Time is better.
Huh.  I'm the only one who voted for recurring themes.

I was thinking more along the lines of series that all have synergy with each other.  The scorpion series, the nymph series, the weapon series, and other such things, all brought together by cards like nymph's queen, animate weapon, crusader, and scorpion lord.  There could also be series designed to gap the lack of synergy between opposite elements, or exacerbate them.
For implementation of synergies I agree that they should be added either on a card by card basis or as part of mechanically driven series rather than metagame driven series.
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