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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1018964#msg1018964
« Reply #156 on: December 01, 2012, 11:08:11 pm »
Quote
First of all, are we going to make the new two elements (Wood/Metal) or are we just going to add new Gaian/Cthonic cards within the already existed elements?
Are we going to add Gaian/Cthonic cards within the Psi element as well?
Gaian/Cthonic cards to the existing elements.
Maybe, maybe not. For now we'll aim for the core 12, then see if people want Other + Outside Factions (Void,Psi,Mirror,etc...). I still need feedback on the abilities in the first post of the thread.

I think sufficient justification could be found for most of the 12 Elements to favor Gaian/Cthonic with a rough 3-per-element model - Elements that favor Gaian/Cthonic would have their 'hybrid' GC card display more Gaian/Cthonic traits. A very small number of elements completely reject one of the two factions - these could developed into later 'traitior' cards once we are done with the main Gaian/Cthonic project.

Here's my view on the Element-Faction interactions. For the purpose of the below table, I refer to the Cthonic 'deity' as Hephan and the Gaian deity as Demea. (Names are based on Hephaestus and Demeter).
ElementsThoughts on GaianThoughts on CthonicThoughts on HybridCard Range
  :aether "Wisdom must be found in the essence of the world(s) we traverse. To gain this knowledge, we must broaden our experiences.""Tradition holds us bound to certain techniques and technologies we may use to achieve true enlightenment.""We must embrace both ways, and use newfound knowledge to improve upon the lesson that we teach."GG,GC,CC
  :air "Nature does not only encompass your trees. The Sacred Wind holds the natural probes to explore and uncover more things in this world.""The Steel Wind is a concept separate from nature. She gives our machines flight, the ability to expand quickly and in one straight path.""A divine wind sings to touch both the arrows of wood and the bullets of metal. What makes you think we should not explore both routes?"GG,GC,CC
  :darkness "The shadows hold secrets, with no need for interference to leave them kept. Interested in 'stealing' a few?""To maintain the desires/fears of the unknown, we must become it's wards and traders.""Why work to benefit a faction, when you can work to benefit yourself in the end?"GG,GC,CC
  :death "Nature ends at some point, and sinks into the grave. We guide the spirits and give them new purpose, if needed.""The undead already start soulless. Adding metal only builds upon that trait.""A great necromancer uses all materials present in the grave. A lingering soul, a ceremonial sword, they all become part of the constructs I raise."GG,GC,CC
  :earth "We abhor the concept of 'Nature' that plagues this world. Only by following the blueprints does one complete a building.""We praise Terrma, the Earth's Will, for enlightening us to the great steel that we shape to his will.""I was once bound to the steel will of Terrma's sight. I fear now that encountering Demea's will allows me to see why so many wished to twist his decrees."GC (Traitor),CC
  :entropy "The endless chaos of the world is everywhere! The arrival of this so called 'goddess' proves it! Hey, want some noodles?""Bah. We hate those that declare ideas only go in one direction. Also, ice cream is the best!""Developed order can get you somewhere... if you use it properly to distill chaos on your opponents. And order that doesn't swing in favor of my enemies is a source of chaos, isn't it?"GG, GC (Traitor)
  :fire "Fire is an energy that springs from the wood. Likewise, a volcano erupts in many directions at once. Rage and flame can come from multiple sources, from the hot-headed pyromancer to the sheer fury of a meteor.""Tempering goes best on one thing - cold steel.""Metal is pliable when under the heat of a properly prepared forge. Figure out what it becomes."GG,GC,CC
  :gravity "Technology does not need nature's bidding to improve upon it. We perfect constructs as Terrma directs it.""Terrma sets out a series of guidelines - our goal is to figure out how to reach their ends.""There is no reason to defect to a faction that at best corrupts well-planned constructs with malfunctioning cells and at worst abhors the usage of carefully crafted robots."CC
  :life "The wood is sacred to Demea, and likewise we too must carefully improve upon Nature's blessings.""We see little use in metal, as it does not grow from the blessings of Demea nor feels any emotion.""Flesh inevitably intertwines itself with metal. A twisted perfection, yet, a beautiful one."GG, GC (Tratior)
  :light "Nature is another messenger in which we may help everyone and unite them in bliss.""Only one kind of peace exists, and it is through a brotherhood of steel where all think as one.""We must unite the powers of flesh and metal, rather than flay one or condemn the other."GG, GC, CC
  :time "The future is like an ocean, a wide, open storm. So is the rest of time, if you look carefully enough.""Time is set into one, direct path. Like a piece of metal, it does not crave to be changed in more destructive hands.""Time is like a living clock, with the living mind of a man yet with the precision of a robot."GG,GC,CC
  :water "Water is the catalyst by which Demea sends her blessings. Likewise, we encourage the continuing growth of our allies.""Metal corrodes before our touch and Terrma's objects seem to slip through our hands. Freezing ourselves into ice gives us the potential to harness this power, but the metal they use greatly fears the heat."*"It is not possible to find a meeting point between the chant of nature and the dirge of metal. Either one solidifies to hold the iron or one lets it sink past his hands."GG,CC
* Liquids/moisture rust metal, metal can be very dense. Ice elementals can use metal but it tends to become brittle and thus very weak to fire.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 11:17:08 pm by Zblader »

Offline OldTrees

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1018971#msg1018971
« Reply #157 on: December 02, 2012, 01:24:45 am »
I think a 3 per element model will be too many slots to fill. A 2 per element model will allow us to show the bias some elements might have.

Spoiler for example:
:aether CG (conductive metal / space)
 :air GG
 :darkness CC
 :death CG
 :earth CC
 :entropy CG
 :fire CC
 :gravity CC
 :life GG
 :light GG
 :time CG
 :water GG
4x GG, 4x CG, 4x CC
GG = 2 Gaian cards
CG = 1 Gaian card 1 Cthonic card
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 01:27:31 am by OldTrees »
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Offline ZephyrPhantomTopic starter

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1018972#msg1018972
« Reply #158 on: December 02, 2012, 01:29:34 am »
I think a 3 per element model will be too many slots to fill. A 2 per element model will allow us to show the bias some elements might have.

Spoiler for example:
:aether CG
 :air GG
 :darkness CC
 :death CG
 :earth CC
 :entropy CG
 :fire CC
 :gravity CC
 :life GG
 :light GG
 :time CG
 :water GG
4x GG, 4x CG, 4x CC
GG = 2 Gaian cards
CG = 1 Gaian card 1 Cthonic card
Ah, I had thought you were refering to cards with Pure Gaian, Pure Cthonic, and hybrid Gaian/Chtonic themes with those letters. In the case that the set is too large I could remove most of the hybrid cards from my model for a 2-card structure, and just make Elements that explicity favor Gaian/Cthonic GG or CC. (Essentially, remove hybrids and traitior themes for this set, or move them to a second expansion of this set, which is possible.)

Offline storyteller

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1018975#msg1018975
« Reply #159 on: December 02, 2012, 02:20:50 am »
I think having a set number of cards per faction, and elements that suit those factions is the best way to go.
I want to reiterate some themes I had fleshed out earlier...

Gaian

Followers of the Eidolon, the Great Spirit. The spirit is everywhere, in all things, it is connected to everything

Users of  :life :light :air  :water
Secondary use of:  :time  :aether

So, I see 2 Life, a Light, an Air or 2, a Water or 2, a time and aether, or using those as activation costs. with 1 Other card

Cthonic

Followers of the Heirophant, the Judge-Priest. The deity can only be reached through the Heirophant, it is above all things, it is separate from all things

Users of: :gravity :fire :darkness
Secondary users of:  :death :entropy
Cthonics have extra  :rainbow (other) cards

I see Cthonic as having 2 Gavity, a Darkness, a Fire or 2, maybe a death or Entropy or using them as activation costs, with 2-3 Other cards

Both factions use   :earth

So to break it down

Gaian (10 cards)
 :life Creature
 :life Permanent
 :light Creature
 :air Creature
 :air
 :water
 :time Permanent
 :aether
 :earth
 :rainbow

Cthonic (10 cards)
 :gravity Creature
 :gravity Permanent
 :darkness
 :fire Creature
 :fire Permanent
 :death
 :entropy
 :earth
 :rainbow Permanent
 :rainbow
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 05:00:18 am by storyteller »

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019024#msg1019024
« Reply #160 on: December 02, 2012, 09:28:29 am »
Perhaps this?:

Gaian (10 cards)
 :life Creature
 :life Permanent
 :light Creature
 :air Creature
 :air Spell
 :water Permanent
 :time Permanent
 :aether Spell
 :earth Permanent
 :rainbow Rainbow support (type depends on the shape of the other cards)

Cthonic (10 cards)
 :gravity Creature
 :gravity Permanent
 :darkness Spell
 :fire Creature
 :fire Permanent
 :death Spell
 :entropy Spell
 :earth Permanent
 :rainbow Permanent
 :rainbow Rainbow support (type depends on the shape of the other cards)

We should also finish discussing the recurring mechanic each faction will have.
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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019026#msg1019026
« Reply #161 on: December 02, 2012, 09:49:57 am »
No offence, but since we aimed for permanent-based elements, I think the vast majority of Gaian & Cthonic cards should be permanents and not creatures or spells. :)
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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019041#msg1019041
« Reply #162 on: December 02, 2012, 11:48:24 am »
Perhaps this then?:

Gaian (10 cards)
 :life Creature
 :life Permanent
 :light Permanent
 :air Creature
 :air Spell
 :water Permanent
 :time Permanent
 :aether Permanent
 :earth Permanent
 :rainbow Rainbow support (type depends on the shape of the other cards)

Cthonic (10 cards)
 :gravity Creature
 :gravity Permanent
 :darkness Permanent
 :fire Creature
 :fire Permanent
 :death Permanent
 :entropy Spell
 :earth Permanent
 :rainbow Permanent
 :rainbow Rainbow support (type depends on the shape of the other cards)
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Offline storyteller

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019078#msg1019078
« Reply #163 on: December 02, 2012, 04:57:45 pm »
Gaian:
Dodge: chance to avoid a source damage completely

Cthonic:
Block: reduce all damage by some amount

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019088#msg1019088
« Reply #164 on: December 02, 2012, 05:36:29 pm »
No offence, but since we aimed for permanent-based elements, I think the vast majority of Gaian & Cthonic cards should be permanents and not creatures or spells. :)
I think at this point we're moving from 'permanent-based element' to 'series with initial permanent focus'.

Perhaps this then?:
I disagree with the placement of  :entropy in your proposed structure.

Randomness and chaos are a key part of Entropy the Element. To Entropy, Nature would a better medium to express the spirit that exists in all (equilibrium, something that Entropy aims for) than a cold, singular metal spirit above all (this represents concentrated order. A concentrated substance diffuses over time as part of entropy, and chaos is order's opposite.)

Reviewing the structure, I also see issues with the placement of Death. Metal does not experience life nor does it experience death. It does not have a spirit to begin with, and seems like an invalid target for those who wish to desecrate life. Death seems more Gaian, especially if one considers the fact that a necromancer believes in reanimation of spirits as well, which is only valid if a spirit exists in anything. (Think Mtg's Golgari.  Opposition to life does not necessarily mean the support of metal. Death can be interpreted as part of the cycle of life or nature.)

What makes :aether inherently Gaian? Aether represents the seeker of knowledge or the interdimensional traveler, not necessarily one who believes in a spirit in everything or one who supports nature.

If anything, Aether's electricity themes, potential focus on the unchanging (see : Quintessence) and need to 'ascend' to a higher plane separate from the others make me think Cthonic.

Quote
We should also finish discussing the recurring mechanic each faction will have.
I still am waiting for feedback on Transmute and Reinforce.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 05:48:28 pm by Zblader »

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Development - Elements/Cards] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019135#msg1019135
« Reply #165 on: December 02, 2012, 11:03:23 pm »
The original idea was to have a permanent focused element.

Based on the ideas of the factions I see the following abilities:

Transmute : - Gaian - Turns target permanent into a creature, or target creature into a permanent. Specifics such as retaining old identity or turning into a new card entirely depend on the card that is doing the transmuting.

Reinforce : - Cthonic- Is this card is discarded or destroyed, generate [benefit]/[effect] (like generate X quanta or a random ally creature gets +X/+X). Alternatively, if this card is discard/destroyed generate a "Salvage Ward" permanent.
Transmute is a neat ability but I do not see that majority of Gaian cards using it.
Reinforce on the other hand is easy to add to a majority of the Cthonic cards.

Gaian:
Dodge: chance to avoid a source damage completely

Cthonic:
Block: reduce all damage by some amount
I do not think dodge would be used on a majority of the Gaian cards.
I fear the result of letting Block exist on a majority of the Cthonic cards.

Perhaps
Gaian:
"growth"
Many Gaian cards have some aspect that increases over time. This may be stats, counters or something else.

Perhaps this then?:

Gaian (11 cards)
 :life :life (plants)
 :aether (sky above the sky)
 :air :air (sky above)
 :death (wood dies more often)
 :earth (trees are tied to the earth)
 :light (sunlight)
 :time (everything uses time)
 :water (necessary for life)
 :rainbow

Cthonic (11 cards)
 :gravity :gravity (mechanical technology)
 :aether (electiricity)
 :darkness (sun can't reach)
 :earth :earth (live in the earth)
 :fire :fire (work metal)
 :time (evrything uses time)
 :water (coolant/steam/...)
 :rainbow

Universal (1 card)
 :rainbow
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Offline storyteller

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019143#msg1019143
« Reply #166 on: December 03, 2012, 12:12:00 am »
Id actually like to go back to some earlier ideas here, instead of accounting for every Element, lets focus on only the core group

Gaian
 :life :light :air :water :earth

Cthonic
 :gravity :fire :darkness :rainbow :earth


leaving  :aether :death :entropy :time as unused, for another expansion or for activation costs
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 12:14:14 am by storyteller »

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Re: PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Requesting Feedback] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43487.msg1019147#msg1019147
« Reply #167 on: December 03, 2012, 12:23:07 am »
Quote
Gaian:
"growth"
Many Gaian cards have some aspect that increases over time. This may be stats, counters or something else.
Since Gaian is about the flexibility of nature, how about the use of spore counters as shown in Glowing Mold | Luminscent Fungus and Propagating Vines | Propagating Vines? I could easily alter spore counters to have a small effect of their own so that they aren't useless. (Such as "Remove a spore counter from a card : gain 1 HP. Activate only once per turn for each stack of spore counters.)
Id actually like to go back to some earlier ideas here, instead of accounting for every Element, lets focus on only the core group

Gaian
 :life :light :air :water :earth

Cthonic
 :gravity :fire :darkness :rainbow :earth


leaving  :aether :death :entropy :time as unused, for another expansion or for activation costs
Why would the factions be devoid of certain elements? I see an opportunity for each to contribute to a certain side, albeit with different interpretations. We could go a third route and have Factionless, but I feel the 'core' ETG already fills that spot along with the 'Universal' part mentioned in OT's model. (Certain MTG sets like Odyssey and Innistrad intentionally 'weaken' certain color combinations to show the prevalence of certain colors/tribes, but no color of mana is ever excluded from being played.)

I think a ~20-26 card 'core' set and a 10-card 'hybrid' expansion would be manageable for this project, using all 12 elements.


Looks good. I would add an Entropy buff spell that symbolizes Nature/Genetic unpredictability to Gaian, and we'd probably be ready to start designing if this model is approved.

 

blarg: