PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Archive]

[OldTrees]

That means that wind could also be a new element. In other words, wind could differ in air. Because wind is actually formed through differences in pressure rather than genuine 'gaseous substances'.

Yes! Wind cannot be broken down into multiple separate things, can be divided in half without changing and is not made from an existing element.

Is that... sarcasm I see?

Not from me.
A tool like a pencil can be broken down into the graphite, the wood, the metal band and the rubber. So it is not an element. A mountain can be divided into many rocks. So it is not an element. Ice is made of Water. So it is not an element. I cannot split Wind into 2 or more things. If I cut some wind into pieces the pieces remain wind. Wind is not made of Air despite moving through air. So Wind could be an element.

But Wind is also Air right?? or am i wrong??

One of these will answer your question:
Wind is a result of pressure through a gaseous medium. It is not the gas.
I consider wind to be under the dominion of Air.

However in order to add elements to a complete game, one needs to shrink the prior categories in order to make room. This is one of the reasons why I am in favor of adding thematic sets to the existing elements rather than make new elements. (See how the Mind card Psion became an Aether card)

[storyteller]

Wood can be broken down, into various chemicals, into water and fiber, it is not suitable as per your descriptions OT. Wood is divisible, it is a Hydrocarbon. It has various discrete components.

Metal I find as a subset of Earth. Metal comprises several 'metals', iron, silver, gold, calcium, nickel etc. These are discrete elements, but alloys of metal are not.

I think you are overthinking things.

A Machine can be broken down. The concept Machines or Mechanics cannot: a system of "interconnected parts that form a complex structure to perform a task." Individual machine can be broken down, concept machine cannot.


The notion of Wood and Metal intrigue me, but I find Metal to similar to Earth, and Wood is not really an element, is a combination of Earth, Water, Light and Life. A compound element. So we have a subset, and a compound. Both interesting concepts, but not elements per se.

[OldTrees]

Wood can be broken down, into various chemicals, into water and fiber, it is not suitable as per your descriptions OT. Wood is divisible, it is a Hydrocarbon. It has various discrete components.

Metal I find as a subset of Earth. Metal comprises several 'metals', iron, silver, gold, calcium, nickel etc. These are discrete elements, but alloys of metal are not.

I think you are overthinking things.

I have not assumed our periodic table is true for EtG. The existing elements in the game imply otherwise. I have assumed the existence of 12 elements. I have no reason to protest Wood because carbon exists in our reality.

In the Chinese elements, Earth referred to soil not the planet. So Metal and Earth_Chinese are subsets of Earth_Western. I have no reason to protest Metal unless it is verified we have the western Earth element.

I think it is important for the theme of elements to be elemental. Otherwise they are mere factions. (You would not believe some of the suggestions I have seen in the past years. "Technology" is tame.)

PS: Thanks for reminding me about "compound". I was looking for it earlier.

@timetock
Yes.

[storyteller]

I can suspend disbelief a bit. The Elements of EtG are primal cosmic forces and the periodic table is a manifestation of its complexity.

Still, Wood is a Compound of  , and Metal is a Subset of 

these are pseudo-elements. I think combining them, into a 14th element needs a premise that unifies them.

Permanent based Wood/Metal, opposite to mind. Really, craftsmanship is all that fits, which is why Im pushing for Mechanics, Machines, or something similar.

Machinery cannot be broken down into individual elements in that Wood cannot be broken into bark, core, fiber, leaves etc. Wood is made of discrete parts and components, ergo, machines are too. Many machines, clocks, watches, cars, carts, canons, boats, steamship river boats, cranes, etc etc etc are made from combinations of Wood and Metal.

Lets take Cannon.  We will use Mechanics until something better comes along.

Cannon
6 :[Mechanics]
Permanent
2
Deal 6 damage to target player

This is similar to a many cards that use different elements to activate. The barrel is made of metal, as is the cannonball. The base or wheels are made of wood. It uses Fire to activate. It is affected by gravity, time, entropy, air, etc, but isnt an aspect of them. It is not fire, it uses fire as a trigger. It is made of wood and metal. It is a machine. It could be broken down into wood and metal parts, or even further to the components of earth and water and light, but it is nothing as broken down. It is a cannon, it is the unique configuration that makes it what it is. Armagio is a gravity master, able to call physical attacks to itself, redirecting projectiles and attackers through pulling gravity. A cannon is a Machine, that uses Machinery to perform an effect. It is what it is.

Anyway, unless we are doing 2 elements of wood and metal, we need a unified umbrella, Machinery, Mechanics, Tools, etc are good fits.

[OldTrees]

Note: The original Wood/Metal suggestion was a suggestion for a pair of elements. (So yes it is Wood vs Metal that won the poll)

Can you suspend disbelief further? Perhaps back to ancient Greece and China?
The Elements of EtG are elemental particles.

If we assume the less restrictive Chinese Earth (rather than Western Earth) then neither Wood nor Metal is related to Earth.
Wood does not need to be alive so Life is not an essential component.
Light is not a component of Wood in real life so I see no reason to assume it is a component of Wood in EtG.
If all the water is taken out of a log there is a remainder. That remainder would be the element Wood.

If I cut a wood in half it is still wood. If I cut machinery in half it becomes broken machinery or scrap material depending on your perspective.

[storyteller]

Wood requires Earth to root, it requires Water, it requires Air to breath. It requires Light to as energy, and Life is required to process Earth, Water, Air, and Light into Wood. No Wood can exist without these things and this process

  + + + *  == "Wood"

Metal can be formed in the heart of stars, it can be ejected into space in discrete amounts. Metal can be different than Earth, a term that comprises sand, clay, organic matter and stones. Earth can also mean, 'ground beneath the feet' the planetary Earth, so it can be any planet on any plane in any dimension. Metal can exist outside of this. Metal is fundamental and discrete.

In this, we have an Element Metal, and a Compound Element Wood.

Air contains some Water by nature, but this is mostly irrelevant.

No other Element presents as much compilation and compound nature than 'Wood'

Wood is no more its own element, than Bone is, a calcium deposit (metal) left over from Life and the province of Death.

Now, since we are presented with this challenge of Wood vs Metal, as per the vote, I think we are delving into factions, compound elements and sub-elements. Wood is Bone is Ice is Lava. I think we need to acknowledge this as we proceed, that this is a war of factions between Metal, an offset of Earth/Gravity and Wood, and offset of Life. This givesway to ideology that expresses these notions.

Wood, a following of eco-environmental peoples, a tribe of Life Synergy workers, who find the pinnacle of Element Enlightenment through cooperation and blending of elements through the faction/subelement 'Wood'

vs

Metal, a following of industrial technologists who feel that progress is created by mastery over Elements, with force and machinery being the path to Purity, of which the find the pinnacle within the sub-element of Earth, known as "Metal"

in this, we have much to work with as we proceed and I think fits better within established theory and philosophy of the plane, Zanzarinia.

[OldTrees]

Wood requires Earth to root, it requires Water, it requires Air to breath. It requires Light to as energy, and Life is required to process Earth, Water, Air, and Light into Wood. No Wood can exist without these things and this process

1) You are confusing Trees with Wood. In a similar way one might confuse Lava with Fire.
2) A Tree can use Air without being made of Air. (Applies to Earth, Light and Water as well)

Thus I do not think we need to adopt the out of place faction template for the card sets. Rather we can keep the elemental template for the card sets. However I do see utility in making the card sets compatible with being converted into the closest element ( or  ).

[storyteller]

but there it is, Wood is produced by trees, it is a product of them. Trees are Wood. Trees make Wood. Trees are made of Wood. Wood, comes from trees.

Bone, is a product of life, specifically, Animals. Animals are not life, Life is a process, that makes Wood and Bone.

Wood is not fundamental, it is not discrete. It is a composite. Wood is not elemental.

I see 2 subsets of Wood and Metal, with distinct wood and Metal Cards. I also see cards from every other element included in either or both sets. At this point, we are better off with a set of warring factions,m than elements themselves. It actually opens up more freedom for development.

Elements have:

Pillar/Tower/Pendulum.
Small Creature
Active Skill Creature
Passive Skill Creature
Medium Creature
Dragon
Permanent
Weapon
Shield
Spell

Factions can move far across those boundaries and tell a better story, create better gameplay and have more freedom for creativity. It also fits thematically with where we have gone, past a new 14th element, and into a war between two pseudo-elements.

[ZephyrPhantom]

My 2 cents:

but there it is, Wood is produced by trees, it is a product of them. Trees are Wood. Trees make Wood. Trees are made of Wood. Wood, comes from trees.

Bone, is a product of life, specifically, Animals. Animals are not life, Life is a process, that makes Wood and Bone.

Wood is not fundamental, it is not discrete. It is a composite. Wood is not elemental.

I see 2 subsets of Wood and Metal, with distinct wood and Metal Cards. I also see cards from every other element included in either or both sets. At this point, we are better off with a set of warring factions,m than elements themselves. It actually opens up more freedom for development.

Elements have:

Pillar/Tower/Pendulum.
Small Creature
Active Skill Creature
Passive Skill Creature
Medium Creature
Dragon
Permanent
Weapon
Shield
Spell

Factions can move far across those boundaries and tell a better story, create better gameplay and have more freedom for creativity. It also fits thematically with where we have gone, past a new 14th element, and into a war between two pseudo-elements.

1) The usual element structure does not apply here because are making a permanent-based element.

2) Life also creates the following : Muscle, Mind/Sapience, Blood. (Note that one of these was suggested as a potential 14th element and the the other two have been done already as an Element and PseudoElement (with HP in place of quanta) respectively.) Each can technically be argued as a composite of something (All three are a composite of cells, if your interpret Mind as the literal brain. If Mind is interpreted figuratively then it is a composite of functioning thoughts.)

3) [Warning : Lots of MTG examples in this one.]

Factions are also going to be much larger than a new element series if we wish to develop them that far - If you take a look at New Phyrexia by itself in the Scars of Mirrodin Block, there are at least 23 cards to represent the 4 remaining colors within the Mirran Resistance, with each color getting at least 2-3 cards and colorless getting a bunch, and not all the cards are well designed like Defensive Stance.

In the interest of time, if we were to develop at least 2 factions for all 12 elements we would either need to drastically cut down on detail (to represent each element fairly while not going too slow that everyone loses interest) or we would have to attempt a very long project that would possibly outlast the Community Card Design. (For reference : it took us five months to make Fenghuang, which is only 1 high quality card. The 13th Element gave us 12 rough cards drafts (minus pillar/mark pendulum, and 1 draft was just a remake of something already archived in Forge), but was cut short after 3 months due to 'fan hate' and misunderstanding of what Scaredgirl was planning. Only three cards from the project have been submitted to crucible, and only 1 has made it to the Armory (and eventually ingame))

Series tend to have lower quality submissions in general and get judged a lot by the lowest quality submission. Ideally we want to avoid that situation by having a small select structure of 10-12 high quality submissions instead of 24-36 faction cards of varying quality (at least 2 cards per element to represent a faction - 1 is thematically weak and more a series akin to dragons - as an example compare the Mirran Resistance having at least 2-3 cards per color (except black because that part was destroyed) vs. the 5-card Spirit Dragon cycle in Kamigawa, or all the Ravnican Guilds that share 1 color vs. a monocolor faction from any other set.). (Note : this is assuming Wood and Metal were 'merged' as elements. If Wood and Metal remain separate then we have to design 20-24 good quality cards if it is two elements and 48-72 faction cards.)

tl;dr - Faction Planning is extensive and may take too long or create many low-quality cards that misrepresent the idea.

Thus I do not think we need to adopt the out of place faction template for the card sets. Rather we can keep the elemental template for the card sets. However I do see utility in making the card sets compatible with being converted into the closest element ( or  ).

Given what happened to Psion, it's likely this will happen (with hopes that we get another card ingame from this project), so instead of factions I think it would better to have a few elemental cards that interact with the new elements (something Mind lacked) as that is probably a much more reasonable goal timewise (probably 3-5 cards at most and 1-2 cards at least). I also agree that we should be flexible in interpreting how new elements work. (Mind got compared a lot to Aether in its early design phase. The other notable design candidate, Spirit, also had similar comparisons to Life,Light, and Death).

4)

Permanent based Wood/Metal, opposite to mind. Really, craftsmanship is all that fits, which is why Im pushing for Mechanics, Machines, or something similar.

I find it interesting that once we change 'Technology' to 'Machinery' or 'Metal', people stop drawing comparisons to Gravity.

[OldTrees]

Side note: Element card sets are better defined by the variety and scope of the effects rather than the pattern created thus far.

I do not think we will agree on a precise classification of Wood. Discussing it further would probably not be productive.

Upon reflection, faction design would be new and interesting. I would be willing to give it a go.


@ZBlader
I am willing to lead the development of a full faction vs faction card set. It would probably have a minimum of 26 (2x10+3x2) cards assuming no new quanta pool. Maximum would be 40(3x10+5x2) cards. Give me a signal and I will start.

[storyteller]

ok, here is where Im at.

Ill be using two terms, elemental/faction, or  what Ive been talking about, and full element, meaning one big wood/metal element that uses 'craft' quanta for lack of a better word.

I dont think we need that many cards, I am thinking 6-10 elemental/faction cards, plus 6-10 existing element cards, times two factions, is 24-40 cards plus or minus pilar pendulum.. this is directly in line with what OT just said. A core group of two mini-elements, with several cards spread over the existing elements. Here is why I think this is good.

You get a solid representation of the new elements, among 6-10 cards. You get a creature or a few permanents, maybe a spell or two. You get the weapon and shield. One could have more of one thing that the other, but you can see the theme and function of the mini-element. Then you can have 6-10(12) cards from existing elements that are 'part-of' the new mini-element. This gives us room to represent the concepts among the existing card base and carry the elemental faction over a bridge from concept t what is implemented.

So, I think, we should have two mini-element/elemental-factions, of around 20 cards each. With'about' half from a core set of that element and the rest from existing elements. We can say there is some cross over, but each faction doesnt need to get alll 12 elements. Not all elements need the same number of cards. 'Wood' can get extra Life or Earth cards, and 'Metal' can get extra Gravity or Aether or Whatever. They dont have to be an exact even split, one could have more 'core' cards than the other.

72 card is quite a few, Im saying about 40, split about evenly over the two notions.
I think 5 months for one card is overkill, but thats me.

If we do go with a merged element of crafted items, we should probably only have around 20 cards at most, probably closer to 12. In this, we need some cards that represent the 'vs' aspect in just one or two cards, possibly with a set of color-love, over 2 cards that each boost half the quanta base. Something similar maybe. I think this is too small a base to cover two full Wood-Metal elements and will stagnate or be crunched too much.

I do think we may have some philosophical differences over the definition of Wood, but it doesn't really matter, I have stated my case and Ive heard the other side of it. Further discussion would only be to argue the finer points and not really productive to this venture. Just know I think of it a certain way and it will temper my submissions to some degree.

So, I think a set of two factions, of 16-24 cards each, or 30-50 total cards, with a core to each and a set of 'allied' element cards that are spread over the existing elements is the way to go. It gives us plenty of creative room, offers a path to implements 2-4 cards into the game easily while representing the work here and is small enough not to be overly complex. Is this acceptable?

[furballdn]

I heard chinese elements mentioned so I will tell what I know about that. Chinese elements have 5.

The "Five Phases":
Wood (木 mù),
Fire (火 huǒ)
Earth (土 tǔ)
Metal (金 jīn) [literally "gold"]
Water (水 shuǐ)

If we look at it like this, then wood, steel, and earth are different. However, I still believe that metal falls under the faction of earth (titanium, iridium, vanadium, steel, hematite, diamond). Wood still seems to me like it should be in . What happened to my suggestion of "matter," or is it too vague?