PROJECT Gaian vs Cthonic : The Elemental Factions [Archive]

[ZephyrPhantom]

@ZBlader
Your over-enthusiasm is leading you to create a non elemental series using a non elemental cost that does not have an elemental theme for a thread called The 14th element.

I assume you read what I said about irreducible and homogeneous base units and I know you remember the difference between elemental series and pseudoelements involving quanta pools. If you disagree then go ahead.

I view Technology as a force that has the potential to pervade all elements, but yet at the same time can function as an abstract concept of it's own ('Science' or 'Research' may be more appropriate to describe my view of the element.) Gear distribution may not be the correct mechanic but I am not very sure if you can break down the 'pursuit of knowledge' into further elements. (The mechanical constructs that result from said pursuit of knowledge are just results of that pursuit. Likewise, capabilities such as genetic engineering may seem elementish in nature [i.e. Life] but no element can really classify the fact the elemental is aiming for a sort of advancement [not truly Light-type perfection or Aether-type ascendance])

That being said, it seems I may be deviating from this project slightly when it comes to 'counter distrubution'. If time allows I'll mess around more with Astral's 'Transfer ability' and see if that becomes a separate series.

Regarding :
-Force-

Force is a good example of something homogeneous that is also irreducible.
5 Newtons can be reduced but Newtons cannot be reduced.

Newtons is kg * mg/s^2. Isn't seconds a unit of ? (And by extension, Newtons can also be broken down into kg * a(cceleration), which gives some strong vibes.  Even if this element is an independent one I feel it may tread too much on Time and Gravity, especially when Gravity already controls acceleration and possibly mass.)

-Wood/Metal-

Personally, I think we should have Metal and Wood as new elements, since they are the only "original" elements than have not appeared yet in any new-element discussion (correct me if wrong here).
Moreover, Wood and Metal can be considered opposite elements, since there always were "struggle" between them during history and they also represent different time periods. Wooden weapons and shields were replaced by metallic ones, wooden ammunition (arrows) were replaced by metallic ones (bullets), wooden vehicles (wagons) were replaced by metallic ones (cars) etc.
Furthermore, they have also different capabilities; Wood floats while Metal sinks, Wood breaks while Metal bends, Wood is organic while Metal is inorganic, Wood is soft while Metal is hard etc.
About Force, well I am not sure about it. I find it too generic to be an element by itself...

What separates Wood from ?
What separate Metal from ?

The conflict seems a bit more like Nature vs. Technology rather than Wood vs. Metal.

[OldTrees]

Regarding :
-Force-

Force is a good example of something homogeneous that is also irreducible.
5 Newtons can be reduced but Newtons cannot be reduced.

Newtons is kg * m/s^2. Isn't seconds a unit of ? (And by extension, Newtons can also be broken down into kg * a(cceleration), which gives some strong vibes.  Even if this element is an independent one I feel it may tread too much on Time and Gravity, especially when Gravity already controls acceleration and possibly mass.)

kg * m/s^2 describes the effect Force has on a mass's location in space time. It does not describe  Mass + Space + Time (3kg + 5m + 2s = ? is a nonsensical equation).

Yes Gravity would be a subcategory of Force if Force became an element. This is a valid criticism.

[ARTHANASIOS]

What separates Wood from ?
What separate Metal from ?

The conflict seems a bit more like Nature vs. Technology rather than Wood vs. Metal.

 Same goes for "what seperates from ?" or "what seperates from ?". Two different elements can be similar with one way or another but not the same by any means.

Both Wood and Metal shouldn't be creature-based. They should be mostly permanent-based elements.

*Since wood is consisted of different layers, I suggest stackable permanents as a core aspect of this element. These permanents should grow stronger by the amount of permanents on their stack.
*I alsoe suggest "trap" permanents as another core aspect of Wood. Spear traps, trapdoors etc. were mostly wooden constructions. These permanents should have abilities which are activated not by quanta, but by the amount or type of hostile attacking creatures.
*Plant-type creatures with very low (or even zero) attack and high health thematically could fit with Wood, but not many of them (we don't want Wood to become very similar with Life).
*There could be a new win condition possible within Wood; the Wood player who manages to fill his/her permanent slots with a certain amount/kind of permanents wins the duel. This is highly debatable of course.

*Metal core ability should be permanents which transform into creatures and back into permanents.
*Another aspect should be spells which highly manipulate the attack or defense of a given creature, but without instantly killing it.
*Some Metal creatures should take different abilities/statistics according to which element targets them. For example, if targeted by an ability they could rust or something, if targeted by a one they could be melted etc.
*There could be a new win condition possible within Metal; the Metal player who manages to have a certain amount of counters of any kind (poison, buff etc.) wins the duel. This is highly debatable of course.

[ZephyrPhantom]

*There could be a new win condition possible within Wood; the Wood player who manages to fill his/her permanent slots with a certain amount/kind of permanents wins the duel. This is highly debatable of course.

*There could be a new win condition possible within Metal; the Metal player who manages to have a certain amount of counters of any kind (poison, buff etc.) wins the duel. This is highly debatable of course.

Just a design sidenote : I find it interesting that you made Wood and Metal based on equipment cards and having win conditions that draw on having X permanents and X counters.  It makes me think of Scars of Mirrodin in which the Mirrans used 'Metalcraft' to trigger an advantage when three or more artifacts were out and Phyrexia used 'Proliferate' and 'Infect' to win when an opponent had 10 poison counters. (Metal's 'manipulation of attack and defense' draws a more general comparison to Phyrexian-based Infect, which dealt -1/-1 counters as damage when it wasn't treated as poison.)  Of course there are lots of differences beyond the general comparisons but I found the parallel interesting.

*Plant-type creatures with very low (or even zero) attack and high health thematically could fit with Wood, but not many of them (we don't want Wood to become very similar with Life).

Not all plants are made out of wood. I feel you may be mostly limited to trees to avoid too much interference with Life (which might hinder theme).  On the other hand, we could go in the other direction you suggested and attempt to justify Life as 'the element of creatures' while Wood becomes 'the element of plants'. (Which would expand theme a lot but limit Life in the process)
Can one break down the Research ('pursuit of knowledge') into subelements?

[storyteller]

well, life itself is broken down into 5 kingdoms... two empires or a dozen other systems, thus life itself is not an indivisible element, but a concept and state of being, just as death is not an element, but an event


life   

Empire Prokaryota   

Kingdom Monera


Empire Eukaryota   
Kingdom Protista
Kingdom Plantae
Kingdom Fungi
Kingdom Animalia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_(biology)#Five_kingdoms


planet earth btw:

[AnonymousRevival]

It probably associates with  , but I'll give it a go. How about magnetism? I know its quite techie and not elemental like but it is a force that hasn't been mentioned or acknowledged in the game.

[ARTHANASIOS]

It probably associates with  , but I'll give it a go. How about magnetism? I know its quite techie and not elemental like but it is a force that hasn't been mentioned or acknowledged in the game.

 The problem is that magnetism has mechanics-wise strong connections with and maybe with too. Gravity Pull's mechanic seems pretty magnetic-like to me. Because of this, magnetism wouldn't add really original mechanics (except if you describe in detail some Magnetism creatures/spells/permanents which aren't similar with GP.)

[moomoose]

'force' seems like its already inside of gravity, which has momentum, unstoppable, acceleration, gravity pull/force and mass
"a force is any influence that causes an object to undergo a certain change, either concerning its movement, direction, or geometrical construction."

[Annele]

Well guys, maybe 'Force' isn't the right name, but what  I was suggesting is quite different from gravity.

Here is a little Flavour text to help you understand (names in ' ' are not final names):

'Force' Elementals like being strong, whether it be by rushing the opponent before he can blink, or slowing the game down to a snail's speed while always staying one step ahead. They use cards like 'Inertia' to turn their creatures into powerful but brittle attackers, and 'Force shield' to slowly turn their opponent's creatures into big but weak monsters.


And the cards:

Inertia - spell
Target creature's attack power  is doubled but its health reduced to 1.

Force shield - permanent
Attacking creatures gain -1/+2



Just basic ideas to show what I had in mind.

[moomoose]

both those cards sound like they fit gravity

[OldTrees]

Can one break down the Research ('pursuit of knowledge') into subelements?

Name an element who's elementals cannot learn. This is one of the reasons hp is not an element.

Well guys, maybe 'Force' isn't the right name, but what  I was suggesting is quite different from gravity.

You are suggesting the Acceleration aspect of Gravity.

[Annele]

both those cards sound like they fit gravity

You are suggesting the Acceleration aspect of Gravity.

Only because of the names. I could call Inertia "Fire power" and say it is , or call force shield "Pacifier" and stick it in . I am thinking that it is very much so the theme of the Element that needs to be tweaked. I was merely suggesting the core of my idea, using a theme we had already discussed.