*Author

Offline OdinVanguard

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205643#msg1205643
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2015, 08:35:36 pm »
This was my point about needing to conceal quanta usage and damage output information.

A facedown variant of cloak would conceal which creatures have what stats (this would also help with #2).

The idea here is that it will disrupt your opponent's ability to effectively choose targeted effects.

While cloak provides a similar protection, the fact that it outright prevents targeting means that the opponent cannot even cast spells on your creatures to begin with.
With facedown effects, the opponent can still target your creatures. The information game here is inducing your opponent to target poorly and waste their resources (cards, quanta, etc.) by targetting poorly (e.g. hitting a 1|25 armagio with a rage potion instead of a 10|3 crimson dragon).
Likewise you can focus on encouraging mistakes rather than hiding information that will be found out.

In some sense, however, this is roughly equivalent to a popular entropy mechanic idea of randomly redirecting targetted effects.

I think much of the potential would be left untapped (either for facedown or targetting randomization), however, since their are few cards that penalize the opponent for directly targeting them... of course that leads to a common circular design block (much like the ones surrounding field manipulation) that penalizing a player for targeting a creature directly is only useful if you can somehow misdirect their targetting to begin with... but misdirecting targetting is only moderately useful unless you have some mechanic present that can afflict a player for direct targeting.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:37:27 pm by OdinVanguard »
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline EmeraldTigerTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4630
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 61
  • EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!EmeraldTiger shines with the light of the Morning Glory!
  • :life :aether
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205650#msg1205650
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2015, 10:34:47 pm »
I was looking for a thematic way to use Entropy and Darkness together with this.
If Nowhere is Somewhere, and Somewhere is Over there, How can we be Anywhere?
:life :aether

Offline OdinVanguard

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205686#msg1205686
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2015, 04:57:16 am »
What do you think of something like this:


Inactivated meaning that it does not attack, can't use spells, and is only targetable during the opponent's turn.

Essentially, provides a means of concealed anti mass CC threat (plague would be an exception though since the poison would kill it on the owner's turn instead).
It would be extremely useful with cloak, but also any other deck that needs to protect itself from mass CC threats.

An alternative spell version:
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 05:01:01 am by OdinVanguard »
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline OldTrees

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10297
  • Reputation Power: 114
  • OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.OldTrees is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • I was available for questions.
  • Awards: Brawl #2 Winner - Team FireTeam Card Design Winner
Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205694#msg1205694
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2015, 06:53:37 am »
What do you think of something like this:

Inactivated meaning that it does not attack, can't use spells, and is only targetable during the opponent's turn.
Permanent version
Well this "play for free inactive" does prevent me from knowing you placed a Shrieker/Black Dragon facedown. However I would have every confidence the facedown was, on average, at least a Dragon/Shrieker (2, 3, 4, or 5 hp possibilities). There will be the rare case where you did not have a dragon in your hand and decided to risk a bluff. But if you did have a dragon/Shrieker and had played this card, you would put 1 dragon facedown (unless you ended you turn with 8+  :earth and 9+ :darkness, then I would have a hint that it is either an out of element Dragon or a Bluff).

Spell version
This version could be played like the permanent version or you could place a couple creatures facedown. If you place a couple down then I know that it is a backup army. If you place just 1-2 down then I would have to decide how strong they are relative to what you are fielding. It could either be 1-2 of your normal or 1-2 Shriekers. But this is just the case described under the permanent version.

So this card would hide a strategic detail. However the cost to play around it seems rather trivial (either not waste quanta on my AoEs or delay them until I have backup single target CC for the Shrieker/Dragon).
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

Offline OdinVanguard

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4984
  • Reputation Power: 67
  • OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.OdinVanguard walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Keeping The Jotnar at bay
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 4th Birthday Cake
Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205730#msg1205730
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2015, 03:26:26 pm »
The cloak synnergy adds a new layer of detail though.
Right now, the counter to cloak is very often to pound away with mass-CC. It removes cloak and wipes out anything lying beneath the cloak.
With a card like this, that strategy can end up potentially unleashing something that is worse than what got wiped away.

Moreover, if this is played after cloak is up it is possible that the opponent won't even know if you have facedown cards nor how many are there. Thus even more information is obscured.
At the very least I think it is a decent start for a nice mindgame strategy.

Something like this could make a stepping stone for adding more facedown mechanic synnergy in general.
For instance, if there were another card that could turn creatures already in play face down (without inactivating them) and then shuffle the positions of face down creatures in play, you now have a very useful means of disrupting single targetting i.e. forcing / encouraging 'mistakes'

So the basic mechanics needed
-Have cards that can generate facedown creatures that penalize the opponent when targeted / killed
-Have cards that can turn existing creatures facedown and shuffle locations of facedown creatures to keep attentive players guessing

The goal: Provide anti-CC / anti-targetting mechanics that revolve around 'encouraging mistakes'
« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 03:33:54 pm by OdinVanguard »
Whether the glass is half full or half empty is a moot point. It is always filled to the brim. It is only a matter of by what. The real question is: What fills you?
If your zombie plan is
kill -9 `ps l | awk '{print $2" "$3" "$9}' | grep "Z" | awk '{printf("%s ",$2)}'`
You might be a unix junky

Offline Submachine

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
  • Reputation Power: 95
  • Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.Submachine is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • Who needs a Sub?
  • Awards: Weekly Tournament Winner (2020.09.27.)Weekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Design July 2015 - GoldSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeBattle League 3/2013 3rd PlaceWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Face down Mechanic (Should We Attempt It?) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=59546.msg1205731#msg1205731
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2015, 03:29:04 pm »
I'd LOVE to once say in this game, "YOU ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!". x)

I'm definitely supporting this.
And we keep driving into the night
It's a late goodbye, such a late goodbye...

~ Platinum Quest ~

 

anything
blarg: