Eternal Spells

[waterzx]

I got the concept, I was just off-topic.

You just inspired me.

Maybe in order to balance the eternal spell, we don't need any negative discard effect or extremely high cost.

My proposal is to make the spell has extremely low effectiveness (e.g. heal 1HP to player), but the effect increases exponentially when you have more eternal spells in hand (possibly to the point of 6HP per card). In this way, you need all 6 copies of the card in hand to make the spell effective but you are also clogging your own hands.

[Pineapple]

I got the concept, I was just off-topic.

You just inspired me.

Maybe in order to balance the eternal spell, we don't need any negative discard effect or extremely high cost.

My proposal is to make the spell has extremely low effectiveness (e.g. heal 1HP to player), but the effect increases exponentially when you have more eternal spells in hand (possibly to the point of 6HP per card). In this way, you need all 6 copies of the card in hand to make the spell effective but you are also clogging your own hands.

That alone is not as effective without a discard effect, as I implied in my previous post. Who cares about clogging your hand when you can draw through 30 cards in 7 turns with only 6 sundials and 4 hourgalsses?

[OldTrees]

1) Constructive does not mean more effective with additional copies. It means it buffs/heals rather than removes/damages
2) Each card is usually estimated at 1-3 elemental quanta [3 is used below]

3X + X cards -> X Cockatrices <- 6X + 1 card
If a card = 3 quanta
6X -> X Cockatrices <- 6X + 3
Fractal or Mitosis are additional costs to break over the 6 card barrier. When X>6, normal methods cost more than 6X
6X + 14 (10 +1 for duo +3 for card) -> X Cockatrices <- 6X + 3
Nerf the Eternal spell to 7
6X + 14 (10 +1 for duo) -> X Cockatrices <- 7X + 3
Costs are equal at X=11

From 1-6 Cockatrice is king
From 7-10 Eternal is king
At 11 Fractal and Eternal are tied
From 12+ Fractal is king
This is niche based balancing and is easy to adjust to many difference examples.

Miracle: 15 + drain + 1 card for ~80 hp ~= 18 + drain for 80hp
Heal: 3 + 1 card for 20hp ~= 6 for 20hp + EM possibility
If the above cards are balanced then an Eternal Heal spell needs only be balanced relative to the most similar card (commutative property of balance)

Set balance at 7 cards
Niche balancing again. This time using already existing restraints.
Heal will be king at 120hp or less. Eternal will be king at 140hp or more.
21 + 7 cards = Y + 1 card -> 140hp
21 + 6 cards = Y -> 140hp
39 = Y -> 140hp
140hp / 39 = 7hp per 2
Buff Eternal spell to 2 -> 7hp

[esran]

you forgot to factor in the convenince of a lower cost spell vs a higher cost spell. i say 2 light for 7 hp eternal spell is far to good. 2 light for 5 hp could be fair IMO.

[Jyiber]

@jyiber
That is an option however it seems to be a little inelegant. A simple discard effect will either require the player to use less (lower probability) or suffer discard effects.

Well, it was just an idea for one of them. Besides, I love throwing "inelegant" wrenches into the gears of a game. Perfection makes me break out in hives. Using a rougher strategy is much more fun anyways, in my humble opinion.

What was Spell-Defense? (Please ignore this question if it involved both players making manual decisions during a single turn)

Sorry, not clear enough. I was referring to the general idea of spell defense. Several card ideas have come up, at least one of which was mine.



[rant]
The triangle of gameplay seems to be Creature> Permanents> Spells.
The game wants you to be tactical about you Creatures and Permanents.
You have PC and CC in the from of spells and creature skills. (and a few targeting permanents)
Then you have immaterial permanents and creatures, which negates the targeting part of any of the above.
As of this point in the games history, there is no spell control. No way to control something with an instant one time effect.
I can understand why. It makes it so there's at least one thing you can't guard against.
But if it were ever put into the game, I think it should go into an element that doesn't have PC. That way it at least has SC.
[/rant]

[waterzx]

1) Constructive does not mean more effective with additional copies. It means it buffs/heals rather than removes/damages

I know what it means. I just proposed a way to help balancing (clog your own hand to increase effectiveness).

[OldTrees]

1) Constructive does not mean more effective with additional copies. It means it buffs/heals rather than removes/damages

I know what it means. I just proposed a way to help balancing (clog your own hand to increase effectiveness).

I must have misunderstood what was meant here:

So, unless the Eternal Spell in question both has discard effects and is constructive (require multiple copies in hand), its use should be limited to once per turn.

[Pineapple]

1) Constructive does not mean more effective with additional copies. It means it buffs/heals rather than removes/damages

I know what it means. I just proposed a way to help balancing (clog your own hand to increase effectiveness).

Yeah, OldTrees wasn't responding to you.

1) Constructive does not mean more effective with additional copies. It means it buffs/heals rather than removes/damages

I know what it means. I just proposed a way to help balancing (clog your own hand to increase effectiveness).

I must have misunderstood what you meant here:

So, unless the Eternal Spell in question both has discard effects and is constructive (require multiple copies in hand), its use should be limited to once per turn.

As for why constructive effects don't work, constructive effects actually make the card better because it's an easier-to-time ability that can work all turns after being drawn.

[OldTrees]

1) Constructive does not mean more effective with additional copies. It means it buffs/heals rather than removes/damages

I know what it means. I just proposed a way to help balancing (clog your own hand to increase effectiveness).

I must have misunderstood what was meant here:

So, unless the Eternal Spell in question both has discard effects and is constructive (require multiple copies in hand), its use should be limited to once per turn.

As for why constructive effects don't work, constructive effects actually make the card better because it's an easier-to-time ability that can work all turns after being drawn.

1) You have not explained why being constructive would require multiple copies in the hand.
2) Being constructive enables after the fact counters. This is not a minor detail.
3) I believe I have demonstrated 2 examples of constructive effects (The Cockatrice and Heal examples) and have proven that there exists a cost at which they would be balanced.

[waterzx]

I'm not sure if this is possible, just a random thought : What if the eternal spell card cannot be discarded ? They stay in your hand during the entire game after you draw them.

[Annele]

I'm not sure if this is possible, just a random thought : What if the eternal spell card cannot be discarded ? They stay in your hand during the entire game after you draw them.

Cool idea, but what if you fill your hand with eternal spells? No discarding, and no drawing. Hmm...

[storyteller]

Cantrips:

Delay Target Creature 

Activate Target Permanent (even if its not yours)

Remove Summon Sickness 

Remove 1 Poison Counter 

Return Target Creature you control to your hand/deck 

Heal 1 Damage to self (this is directly in line with Entropy Shield) 

Burrow a Creature you control 

Give Creature you control +1 until end of turn 

Turn your mark into Element of Target 

These are all balanceable effects for the Eternal Mechanism