Eternal Spells

[waterzx]

Not sure if this is suitable for an eternal spell. It's the latest idea I would like to work on but I want to drop it here. (The Eternal property is added just for this thread)


Falling Stars

8

Sacrifice all cards in hand. Each sacrifice launches a bolt of 10 damage and 50% accuracy on target. Eternal.

The effectiveness of this card is limited by the actual number of cards you have. This counters the Eternal property of this spell.

Just for reference and brainstorming, I don't think this is a valid idea for Eternal Spell

[OldTrees]

Destructive spells are too abusive as eternal spells. Please stop suggesting them.

if we are going to make eternal spells such as this then we need to have ways to remove them.
one option that i have heard of is a creature that causes the opponent to discard one card upon attack. (maybe this was done before in dune scorp?)
also, having the ability to make anything eternal will be problematic, ex: infinite silence, infinite nightmare, infinite rewind, infinite sundials or sosac etc...

The point is to design the effects of eternal spells so they can be countered without being removed.
A card that heals can be stopped with Quanta Denial or lots of damage.

[waterzx]

Sorry for that. I didn't notice.

I think it would be quite complicated to have 3 different effects for one card (1.main effect, 2. eternal property, 3.negative effect on user for balance)

If the negative effect is really needed (not balancing the card by cost alone), how about making it undo its positive effects when discarded ? (e.g. an eternal card that makes damage absorption counter, but all counters are lost if you discard the eternal card)

[Jyiber]

Interesting...

As suggested, a deck that had too many of these would potentially create a problem with drawing and discarding.
So you could only realistically have 2-3. Probably of the same one to keep cohesiveness.

I got one effect idea. How about one that copied one of itself to your hand per turn (non-exponential like infest, more like mitosis) after you drew it, eventually forcing you to take a powerful discard effect. It could have a powerful positive effect attached to it, but when your time runs out in 7 turns...

If a bunch of new spell ideas make it into the game, might I bring up the old
Spell-Defense subject?

[Pineapple]

The Relic mechanic is nice and all, but I strongly feel that Eternal Spells can't be balanced unless one copy can only be used once per turn.

[OldTrees]

Sorry for that. I didn't notice.

I think it would be quite complicated to have 3 different effects for one card (1.main effect, 2. eternal property, 3.negative effect on user for balance)

If the negative effect is really needed (not balancing the card by cost alone), how about making it undo its positive effects when discarded ? (e.g. an eternal card that makes damage absorption counter, but all counters are lost if you discard the eternal card)

Eternal property is not an effect in itself it is an implementation mechanic (Like "Pillar" or "Weapon"). However I suspect most will simply have a main effect with the Eternal implementation. Either that or with a discard effect to nerf eternal rainbow IFF eternal rainbow would be a problem.



@jyiber
That is an option however it seems to be a little inelegant. A simple discard effect will either require the player to use less (lower probability) or suffer discard effects.

What was Spell-Defense? (Please ignore this question if it involved both players making manual decisions during a single turn)

The Relic mechanic is nice and all, but I strongly feel that Eternal Spells can't be balanced unless one copy can only be used once per turn.

Your reasoning is? (If it is merely intuition then see the opening post)
Would the following pair of eternal spells be unbalanced if both could be used as many times per turn as quanta was available?

• 6 Create a Cockatrice
• 1 Heal target 3hp

I hope these examples prove that the mechanic is able to be balanced.

[Annele]

The Relic mechanic is nice and all, but I strongly feel that Eternal Spells can't be balanced unless one copy can only be used once per turn.

Your reasoning is? (If it is merely intuition then see the opening post)
Would the following pair of eternal spells be unbalanced if both could be used as many times per turn as quanta was available?

• 6 Create a Cockatrice
• 1 Heal target 3hp

I hope these examples prove that the mechanic is able to be balanced.

It proves it as long as your heal one can't target players.

[OldTrees]

The Relic mechanic is nice and all, but I strongly feel that Eternal Spells can't be balanced unless one copy can only be used once per turn.

Your reasoning is? (If it is merely intuition then see the opening post)
Would the following pair of eternal spells be unbalanced if both could be used as many times per turn as quanta was available?

• 6 Create a Cockatrice
• 1 Heal target 3hp

I hope these examples prove that the mechanic is able to be balanced.

It proves it as long as your heal one can't target players.

Really? I think a 1:light:3hp ratio would be sufficient to slow down an offense without being impossible to get through. In the unlikely event that that ratio is OP, the ratio can easily be adjusted to 1/2 or even 2/3rds.

[Pineapple]

The Relic mechanic is nice and all, but I strongly feel that Eternal Spells can't be balanced unless one copy can only be used once per turn.

Your reasoning is? (If it is merely intuition then see the opening post)
Would the following pair of eternal spells be unbalanced if both could be used as many times per turn as quanta was available?

• 6 Create a Cockatrice
• 1 Heal target 3hp

I hope these examples prove that the mechanic is able to be balanced.

It proves it as long as your heal one can't target players.

Really? I think a 1:light:3hp ratio would be sufficient to slow down an offense without being impossible to get through. In the unlikely event that that ratio is OP, the ratio can easily be adjusted to 1/2 or even 2/3rds.

Well, attempting to balance it with all relevant cards currently in the game is difficult. Note that the cost of [Extra Card] has been approximated as 5 turns with 1 mono Pillar.


9x [+1 Cockatrice] - 1x [Extra Card] ? 1x [Fractal] + 9x [Cockatrice]
9x [6 ] - 1x [5 random] ? 1x [10 ] + 9x [3 ]
49 > 37

Weaker than Fractal at 100% capacity.

4x [+1 Cockatrice] - 1x [Extra Card] ? 1x [Fractal] + 4x [Cockatrice]
4x [6 ] - 1x [5 random] ? 1x [10 ] + 4x [3 ]
19 > 22

Comparable to Fractal at 50% capacity.

6x [+1 Cockatrice] - 5x [Extra Card] ? 6x [Cockatrice]
6x [6 ] - 5x [5 random] ? 6x [3 ]
11 < 18

Stronger than 6 Cockatrice alone.

Conclusion: (creature) card advantage is extremely difficult to balance around.


1x [Miracle] ? 33x [+3 HP]
1x [15 ] ? 33x [1 ]
15 > 33

Weaker than 1 Miracle.

6x [Miracle] ? 198x [+3 HP] - 5x [Extra Card]
6x [15 ] ? 198x [1 ] - 5x [5 random]
90 < 173

Weaker than 6 Miracle.

1x [Heal] ? 7x [+3 HP]
1x [3 ] ? 7x [1 ]
3 < 7

Weaker than 1 Heal.

3x [Heal] ? 20x [+3 HP] - 2x [Extra Card]
3x [3 ] ? 20x [1 ] - 2x [5 random]
9 < 10

Comparable to 3 Heals.

6x [Heal] ? 40x [+3 HP] - 5x [Extra Card]
6x [3 ] ? 40x [1 ] - 5x [5 random]
18 > 15

Comparable to 6 Heals.

Conclusion: Card advantage isn't as large of a factor for healing, but it multiplies current imbalances in different types of healing.

The Relic mechanic is nice and all, but I strongly feel that Eternal Spells can't be balanced unless one copy can only be used once per turn.

Your reasoning is? (If it is merely intuition then see the opening post)

• Discard effects - Only truly effective when packing 8+ Eternals.
• Higher costs - As shown, cost cannot counterbalance card advantage (Relevant: Creature Abilities vs. Spells).
• Slower effects and/or constructive effects - Examples?

So, unless the Eternal Spell in question both has discard effects and is constructive (require multiple copies in hand), its use should be limited to once per turn.

[Nepycros]

Perhaps a card that requires 3 relics to make, and even more relics to activate its ability in game? Heh, far-fetched, but interesting.

3 Relics + 1500 electrum = Inverted Pendulum
Target Relic in hand becomes a weapon/shield/creature.

[Annele]

Perhaps a card that requires 3 relics to make, and even more relics to activate its ability in game? Heh, far-fetched, but interesting.

3 Relics + 1500 electrum = Inverted Pendulum
Target Relic in hand becomes a weapon/shield/creature.

Relics are meant to be useless. Oldtrees was suggesting a spell that, like relic, stayed in your hand.

[Nepycros]

Perhaps a card that requires 3 relics to make, and even more relics to activate its ability in game? Heh, far-fetched, but interesting.

3 Relics + 1500 electrum = Inverted Pendulum
Target Relic in hand becomes a weapon/shield/creature.

Relics are meant to be useless. Oldtrees was suggesting a spell that, like relic, stayed in your hand.

I got the concept, I was just off-topic.