Each element's thing

[The_Mormegil]

Biased Luck, ???

I still believe that quantum physics / probability is an acceptable theme for entropy.


However. Let's talk a bit about the possible fixes for each element, so that I might quote people on the Metagame thread :3

So far everybody that has partecipated in this discussion mostly agrees that  and are - mechanically speaking - good elements. Most if not all of them could benefit from some additions, but I'll leave it to you and focus on the rest of the elements for now.

  is a good element that lacks a bit of extra awesomeness - something Sky Blitz tried to add, but ultimately failed (unfortunately, it's mostly useful for OTK decks with dragons, and those are either rainbows or anti-stall duos. And even then, PU is tough competition). It's got very good defense, with two of the best shields in the game, good Bonewall and Hope synergy and awesome CC options. It's got a pretty good upped offense, with Sky Dragon (very good upped dragon), Elite Wyrm and Damselfly (who doesn't love a 2 attack pillar?). It has got alternate damage - UG. It has got stall breaking capacity - Sky Blitz, UGs. It hasn't got a PC option and that can be said - unfortunately - of most elements (there are a lot of possible additions that would benefit the game in that regard). So what does Air need, apart from a slight Wyrm buff?

  is one of the worst elements. Its weakness to RT is proverbial, and unfortunately very true. Couple RT with good PC and you stop Gravity's only real answer - CataTitans. Gravity hasn't got any real stall card (Armagio is often more useful as an Acceleration target; also it can be stopped by RT too), lacks an opportune shield (Gravity Shield is pretty situational), lacks proper fast CC as its best attacker has no synergy with GPull and Otyugh is rather... situational. It has unavoidable damage (lots of unavoidable damage), and some growth mechanisms. It also has a rainbow hard-counter that can net some minor healing (major in case of rainbows, but it's rather devastating in that case even without it). I find that the solution Gl1tch proposed is taking away from Gravity's theme (Charger is cool!) and also debuffing its only strong card, and therefore suggest (as I have done already) to buff Graviton Mercenary into something useful: 5 for a 6|6, 2 for a 3|6 upped. I also already suggested a nice shield (Repulsor, credits to 10 men).
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  is a tough one. To quote myself:

Life is terribly weak to CC. It has no alternative damage except Scorpions' poison - which is creature-based. CC rushes can outspeed it, its best shield is very slow and requires constant healing to work (something only  has in-element), the other shield is NOT efficient (Emerald costs 5, upped Mirror costs 2, Jade costs 7, PERMAFROST costs 7). Its creatures are good but you are either sacrificing lots of card space for good cheap creatures or you are basing yourself on very expensive hard-hitters. Life cannot answer quanta denial effectively as its novabow and its immorush are definitely lacking and even with Sanctuary support, its stalls are pretty weak compared to others because hey, Life has NO FORM OF CONTROL WHATSOEVER. Except its shield, which is easily dispatched, slow, and needs lots of quanta to even play. Its rush is easy to defeat with shields, and even adding off-element PC you are both slowing you down and reducing potential versatility (you need more quanta cards if you have an off-element mark, and that combined with the great number of cards needed for an effective life rush means you don't have space for anything else). Besides, immaterial shields like Hope, Protected Diamond or - ironically - Jade are still killing your damage. Your stalls are subpar and your rushes are strong but prone to abuse from control decks. If you try to avoid controld decks you can still die to shields, stalls or even just faster rushes (something almost every element can pull off if you dilute your life deck with off element anti-control cards). Even its Firestall isn't all that strong and has far more counters than Light's version.

  is a strong element, as Root pointed out. I don't believe there is much to do there, apart maybe changing Guardian Angel's stats to 3/3 (which would make it more playable and also give Light a decent small creature besides Pegasus.

  is a rather strong element. I feel it still lacks a healing method (I suggested Revolving Time a while ago, which would also fit very well thematically). It doesn't really need more offense now that it has a strong midrange attacker and it has good control and stall capacity. I really believe a healing method would solve most if not all of Time's problems.

  is element of synergy and adaptability. I'm still searching for a good idea on how to make a good trio quanta generator for Water, as that would practically solve all its problems (not quite rainbow, but with all the synergy it has, having the possibility to reliably use two off-elements is going to make miracles).

What are your opinions on this?

[OldTrees]

Biased Luck, ???

I still believe that quantum physics / probability is an acceptable theme for entropy.


However. Let's talk a bit about the possible fixes for each element, so that I might quote people on the Metagame thread :3

So far everybody that has partecipated in this discussion mostly agrees that  and are - mechanically speaking - good elements. Most if not all of them could benefit from some additions, but I'll leave it to you and focus on the rest of the elements for now.

  is a good element that lacks a bit of extra awesomeness - something Sky Blitz tried to add, but ultimately failed (unfortunately, it's mostly useful for OTK decks with dragons, and those are either rainbows or anti-stall duos. And even then, PU is tough competition). It's got very good defense, with two of the best shields in the game, good Bonewall and Hope synergy and awesome CC options. It's got a pretty good upped offense, with Sky Dragon (very good upped dragon), Elite Wyrm and Damselfly (who doesn't love a 2 attack pillar?). It has got alternate damage - UG. It has got stall breaking capacity - Sky Blitz, UGs. It hasn't got a PC option and that can be said - unfortunately - of most elements (there are a lot of possible additions that would benefit the game in that regard). So what does Air need, apart from a slight Wyrm buff?

  is one of the worst elements. Its weakness to RT is proverbial, and unfortunately very true. Couple RT with good PC and you stop Gravity's only real answer - CataTitans. Gravity hasn't got any real stall card (Armagio is often more useful as an Acceleration target; also it can be stopped by RT too), lacks an opportune shield (Gravity Shield is pretty situational), lacks proper fast CC as its best attacker has no synergy with GPull and Otyugh is rather... situational. It has unavoidable damage (lots of unavoidable damage), and some growth mechanisms. It also has a rainbow hard-counter that can net some minor healing (major in case of rainbows, but it's rather devastating in that case even without it). I find that the solution Gl1tch proposed is taking away from Gravity's theme (Charger is cool!) and also debuffing its only strong card, and therefore suggest (as I have done already) to buff Graviton Mercenary into something useful: 5 for a 6|6, 2 for a 3|6 upped. I also already suggested a nice shield (Repulsor, credits to 10 men).
.
  is a tough one. To quote myself:

Life is terribly weak to CC. It has no alternative damage except Scorpions' poison - which is creature-based. CC rushes can outspeed it, its best shield is very slow and requires constant healing to work (something only  has in-element), the other shield is NOT efficient (Emerald costs 5, upped Mirror costs 2, Jade costs 7, PERMAFROST costs 7). Its creatures are good but you are either sacrificing lots of card space for good cheap creatures or you are basing yourself on very expensive hard-hitters. Life cannot answer quanta denial effectively as its novabow and its immorush are definitely lacking and even with Sanctuary support, its stalls are pretty weak compared to others because hey, Life has NO FORM OF CONTROL WHATSOEVER. Except its shield, which is easily dispatched, slow, and needs lots of quanta to even play. Its rush is easy to defeat with shields, and even adding off-element PC you are both slowing you down and reducing potential versatility (you need more quanta cards if you have an off-element mark, and that combined with the great number of cards needed for an effective life rush means you don't have space for anything else). Besides, immaterial shields like Hope, Protected Diamond or - ironically - Jade are still killing your damage. Your stalls are subpar and your rushes are strong but prone to abuse from control decks. If you try to avoid controld decks you can still die to shields, stalls or even just faster rushes (something almost every element can pull off if you dilute your life deck with off element anti-control cards). Even its Firestall isn't all that strong and has far more counters than Light's version.

  is a strong element, as Root pointed out. I don't believe there is much to do there, apart maybe changing Guardian Angel's stats to 3/3 (which would make it more playable and also give Light a decent small creature besides Pegasus.

  is a rather strong element. I feel it still lacks a healing method (I suggested Revolving Time a while ago, which would also fit very well thematically). It doesn't really need more offense now that it has a strong midrange attacker and it has good control and stall capacity. I really believe a healing method would solve most if not all of Time's problems.

  is element of synergy and adaptability. I'm still searching for a good idea on how to make a good trio quanta generator for Water, as that would practically solve all its problems (not quite rainbow, but with all the synergy it has, having the possibility to reliably use two off-elements is going to make miracles).

What are your opinions on this?

Air needs more cards that are improved by or enhance airborne. Sky Blitz was the first. Air needs more. If the enhancement was antiCC/evasion then it would also reduce the vulnerability to permanents.

  Agreed

  There are now 3 topics discussing this.

  SoG is available and healing is not needed.

  Most forms of quanta conversion combined with pendulums would fit the bill.

Sidenote: The ??? is what you are calling quantum physics. I am not sure if that term is sufficiently mechanically descriptive to be a mechanical theme.

[The_Mormegil]

SoG is available and healing is not needed.

Well, SoG is not available anymore, as 3 healing is often too little to justify card space. As for not needing the healing, take a look at Time's most successful decks:
[- Grabbowinder: a rush deck with some denial and control. No healing needed.]
- Basic Dune Scorpion: a stall deck that relies on Dunes to achieve its win condition. Would greatly benefit from healing.
- Ghostal: uses Dimensional Shield stalling. That's almost as good as healing and has mostly the same effect. Also benefits from healing.
- Sanctuary stall: 'nuff said.
- Ghostmare: uses Nightmare for healing and has heavy card denial to press its advantage.
- PoisonDial: uses Sundials to stall for poison to kill. Would benefit from healing.

Why do most of these decks use a healing method of some sorts? Well, they don't really use healing, but rather a way to press advantage, because Procrastination, Reverse Time, Eternity, Sundial, even Hourglass need a way to press card advantage and more importantly turn advantage. If you add a healing card to Time, it gains incredible synergy between all of its cards and tactics since most of Time's cards are really good at delaying problems, but most of them do not solve them completely.

Most forms of quanta conversion combined with pendulums would fit the bill.

Well, kind of. I was looking for something water-specific, most forms of conversion proposed are for all elements.

Also, what would you suggest for Water?

[EmeraldTiger]

Being there 3 topics saying has issues that needs to be addressed, what suggestions can we give Zanz to answer these issues?

[OldTrees]

SoG is available and healing is not needed.

Well, SoG is not available anymore, as 3 healing is often too little to justify card space. As for not needing the healing, take a look at Time's most successful decks:
[- Grabbowinder: a rush deck with some denial and control. No healing needed.]
- Basic Dune Scorpion: a stall deck that relies on Dunes to achieve its win condition. Would greatly benefit from healing.
- Ghostal: uses Dimensional Shield stalling. That's almost as good as healing and has mostly the same effect. Also benefits from healing.
- Sanctuary stall: 'nuff said.
- Ghostmare: uses Nightmare for healing and has heavy card denial to press its advantage.
- PoisonDial: uses Sundials to stall for poison to kill. Would benefit from healing.

Why do most of these decks use a healing method of some sorts? Well, they don't really use healing, but rather a way to press advantage, because Procrastination, Reverse Time, Eternity, Sundial, even Hourglass need a way to press card advantage and more importantly turn advantage. If you add a healing card to Time, it gains incredible synergy between all of its cards and tactics since most of Time's cards are really good at delaying problems, but most of them do not solve them completely.

Most forms of quanta conversion combined with pendulums would fit the bill.

Well, kind of. I was looking for something water-specific, most forms of conversion proposed are for all elements.

Also, what would you suggest for Water?

I am not saying a problem doesn't exist that healing could solve. I am saying healing is not the only solution and should not be assumed and thus overused. What is needed in those cases is more defenses against damage. Healing is a defense against damage but it is only one of many.

  Quanta Locket, Elemental Temples|Shrines, Elemental Factories|Makers ... Then add cards that increase the synergy between water creatures.

Being there 3 topics saying has issues that needs to be addressed, what suggestions can we give Zanz to answer these issues?

It means that discussion should probably be moved to one of the other threads.

[The_Mormegil]

I am not saying a problem doesn't exist that healing could solve. I am saying healing is not the only solution and should not be assumed and thus overused. What is needed in those cases is more defenses against damage. Healing is a defense against damage but it is only one of many.

Yeah, but healing has a ton of synergy with Time, whereas other damage defenses (DR shield, lethal CC) are... less synergic. Procrastination "doubles" the effect of every healing card you have, Sundial effectively heals you every time you play one, even Reverse Time is very synergic with constant healing. Another very synergic option is reliable CC -  like Scarabs - but that relies on off-element quanta and I find is kind of less thematic that wounds healing over time.

[Ekki]

I am not saying a problem doesn't exist that healing could solve. I am saying healing is not the only solution and should not be assumed and thus overused. What is needed in those cases is more defenses against damage. Healing is a defense against damage but it is only one of many.

Yeah, but healing has a ton of synergy with Time, whereas other damage defenses (DR shield, lethal CC) are... less synergic. Procrastination "doubles" the effect of every healing card you have, Sundial effectively heals you every time you play one, even Reverse Time is very synergic with constant healing. Another very synergic option is reliable CC -  like Scarabs - but that relies on off-element quanta and I find is kind of less thematic that wounds healing over time.

Maybe wounds heal over time, but they heal because of "the inside you". If time just went by, then you'd bleed to death.  just seem to amplify or decrease the rate at the one something happens (that being drawing, healing or dealing damage). What I mean, healing per se, isn't a Time-ish mechanic. Maybe the synergy is there, but I think you should never put the synergy before the mechanic of an element.

[OldTrees]

I am not saying a problem doesn't exist that healing could solve. I am saying healing is not the only solution and should not be assumed and thus overused. What is needed in those cases is more defenses against damage. Healing is a defense against damage but it is only one of many.

Yeah, but healing has a ton of synergy with Time, whereas other damage defenses (DR shield, lethal CC) are... less synergic. Procrastination "doubles" the effect of every healing card you have, Sundial effectively heals you every time you play one, even Reverse Time is very synergic with constant healing. Another very synergic option is reliable CC -  like Scarabs - but that relies on off-element quanta and I find is kind of less thematic that wounds healing over time.

You know me better than that. If I was referring to adding DR or lethal CC I would have said so. I said defense against damage indicating a new type of defense against damage that was time like would be a better addition than healing.

Defenses can but are not excluded from Removal, Mitigation, Disabling and Negation.
Removal of damage: Removing the source of the damage. The source can be removed to (the deck, the hand, destroyed). Sources of damage can be skills like Venom which can be removed separately from the creature.
Mitigation of damage: Reduce the amount or significance of damage. DR, Attack reduction, Max HP increases, Miss Chance, capped damage, threat of Removal or Negation ...
Disabling of damage: Prevent the source of damage from dealing damage. DR, Attack reduction, delay, freeze, stasis, ...
Negation of damage: The negation of damage with its inverse (Healing). SoSac, Antimatter, Regeneration, Heal, heal per attack ...

How about Attack reduction from aging? Perhaps even -1|+0 per turn (including delayed). Probably a status from an activated ability or twice as fast if it were a single target spell.

[The_Mormegil]

How about Attack reduction from aging? Perhaps even -1|+0 per turn (including delayed). Probably a status from an activated ability or twice as fast if it were a single target spell.

About as good as healing, as it is similarly synergic: any way to delay the damage and press turn / card advantage - RT, Sundial, Procrastination... - are enhancing this mechanic. It would need to be an ability, though: if it wasn't reliable it would be more limited and less synergic, and it would step on the toes of RT.

[EmeraldTiger]

Is the next element that needs some love or

[ninetyfools]

Is the next element that needs some love or

Definitely Air. Aether is fine. 

[The_Mormegil]

I'd rather focus on Gravity than Air, actually. Here is why:

Old Trees said (although I can't find where) that Air is prone to CC, hasn't got strong defenses and is predictable in its offense.
Well, Air has strong upped rush potential which is not prone to CC thanks to having lots of creatures (Damselfly damage adds up...), has alternative permanent-based damage in UG, has an excellent weapon in Owls' Eye that is capable of winning a game alone (Earth-Air stall's win condition is, in fact, that - or deckout), has Firefly Queen which is resistant to many forms of CC and spawns even more creatures, has excellent synergy with poison and even with bolts. So it isn't predictable in its offense either.
It has good defenses too, as its CC is excellent and I believe OT is undervaluing its shields a whole lot: Wings is a deadly weapon that stops many top-tier decks cold, cutting their offense at least in half as well as stopping powerful weapons such as Fahrenheit, Arsenic and Discord, and that's not even counting Spider decks - which are extremely powerful if half-upped as spiders are great upped attackers; Fog Shield is extremely powerful in rush vs rush battles: grabbow mirror matches are oftentimes determined by how lucky you are with it. Also, Fog is one of the best Discord soft counters as it comes out fast even against Discord and has a good chance to stop it for a turn, allowing you to play a real answer - or even just plain ol' offense. Add Hope and Bonewall synergy and you have really good defenses, versatile offenses and the potential to run very different deck concepts.

You might specify that you need duos to pull this off and that you are discussing mono elements, but consider Gravity: its offense is MUCH more predictable and hard countered by RT, its defense is pityful as its CC is anti-synergic or slow and its shield is really situational (compare it to Wings: Wings stops top-tier threats and has off-element synergy to stop the rest, Gravity Shield doesn't stop top-tier threats and has far worse off-element synergy to stop part of the rest. Wings' only downpoint is that it needs to be chained).
Even if you use a duo, you either pick a more varied offense or a better defense, but can't afford both while keeping most of your deck Gravity-based.