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Offline stereohelixTopic starter

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Creature-to-Creature Combat Design and Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48488.msg1059899#msg1059899
« on: April 14, 2013, 09:20:49 pm »
This thread is for discussing creature design and creature skill design for creature-to-creature combat.

The current meta-game for creature selection and card design in EtG heavily favors two characteristics of creature card: high attack and low casting cost. I think this is great as far as it goes. High damage creatures are cool and fun, and a lot of people like them, for the same reasons that lots of people play nukers in MMORPGs.

To get things started, I'd like to discuss broadening the value of such cards by introducing ways for creatures to interact using new sets of creature skills. For example, here are some of the skills used in the Battlegrounds Series I recently started designing:

Strike: (activated) Deal attack damage to target.
Battle: (activated) Deal attack damage to target creature. Target creature counterattacks.
Backstab: Double damage to creatures.
Stealth: Can't be targeted by creatures.
Vigilant: Can target stealthed creatures.
Guardian: Intercepts targeted damage effects. Lasts 3 turns.
Endurance: Incoming damage reduced by 1.
Barkskin: Immune to poison, and incoming damage reduced by 1.
Augmentation/Growth: +0|+1 and heal 1 each turn.

As you can see, many of these skills directly counter one another, and most favor creatures with high HP. The set as a whole, combined with the priority in EtG for high attack in order to finish off your opponent, creates a dynamic tension with attack, HP, and current creature skills.

Some questions:

What other skills would be useful?
How should these skills be balanced in terms of creature cost?
What's the relative value between attack and HP in this context?
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Creature-to-Creature Combat Design and Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48488.msg1067964#msg1067964
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 01:30:32 am »
I made a series based off of introducing this jointly with field based effects as a medium.

Even without field effects though, I still think this sort of thing would be totally awesome and I would like to see more cards that incorporate a creature combat theme / motif.

I think the "Battle" mechanic could be very fun on a weapon or as a permanent that causes the player to use their equipped weapon to do so.
(E.g. like Owl's Eye but you give the creature a free shot at you in exchange)
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Re: Creature-to-Creature Combat Design and Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48488.msg1068023#msg1068023
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 04:43:18 am »
Vigilant cannot work until Stealth is reworded.
Acceleration is or is not reduced by Endurance/Barkskin?
Remember Liquid Shadow + Barkskin when balancing.
Remember Acceleration and Liquid Shadow when balancing Augmentation.

One more thing:
If not underpowered this addition would cause a cascading reaction in the metagame. The size and effect are hard to judge by mere theory. In many ways this resembles the reason I say the phrase "Pillars are UP/balanced/OP." does not make sense.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 04:44:55 am by OldTrees »
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Offline stereohelixTopic starter

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Re: Creature-to-Creature Combat Design and Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48488.msg1068130#msg1068130
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 01:59:00 pm »
In many ways this resembles the reason I say the phrase "Pillars are UP/balanced/OP." does not make sense.

Can you elaborate or link? I'm not sure what you're referring to.


I'm thinking a bit about the metagame with this, although I'm guessing both of you, and others, have thought about it a bit more and have some good insights.

It's actually my intention to mess with the meta-game. For example, adding more cards that don't attack, or that prevent creatures from attacking -- but deal damage to creatures instead. This would also have a cascading effect on the meta-game, because once creatures are not attacking, it's more advantageous to play cards that prevent creatures from attacking--because the drawback of not attacking can only apply once. An example would be playing the SoPa with a Battleground or on a Rampaging Monster (both card ideas of mine.)

The natural counter-balance is that, like pillars, none of these skills help you directly win the game. So you always need to balance them with different types of cards. Is this what you mean by a cascading effect and pillars?

Another way of saying this is that currently there is a cascading meta-game effect that favors high-attack, low-defense creatures. This is the case because rushes are strong and have only particular counters, not general defensive counters. These types of card abilities will make slower and defensive cards stronger -- which leads to two effects diversifying effects: one, decks would get thicker; and two, decks design would involve more balance between offensive and defense creatures.

Of course, it almost goes without saying that the actual situation is more complex than that and would require more testing, but it helps to theorize to try and figure out a direction to go in first.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 02:02:30 pm by stereohelix »
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Creature-to-Creature Combat Design and Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48488.msg1068302#msg1068302
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 12:08:11 am »
In many ways this resembles the reason I say the phrase "Pillars are UP/balanced/OP." does not make sense.

Can you elaborate or link? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Pillars creates a baseline to which cards can be balanced. If we change pillars we have changed the baseline not imbalanced the pillars. Since pillars are necessarily balanced it does not make sense to claim they are balanced. (Their balance being a necessary consequence rather than a optional characteristic)

All baselines behave this way.
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Offline GamerJL

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Re: Creature-to-Creature Combat Design and Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48488.msg1068307#msg1068307
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 12:23:50 am »
jam : target enemy creature cant target ally creatures
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Offline stereohelixTopic starter

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Re: Creature-to-Creature Combat Design and Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48488.msg1072389#msg1072389
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2013, 07:28:31 pm »
Appreciate all the ideas, especially things to watch out for in balance.

I have been thinking it might be better to remove "vigilant" and just allow stealth to be removed by anything that removed invisibility. Something like:

Night Watch | Vigil
Permanent, Cost 2 :light
Removes enemy invisibility and stealth when played.
:light :light Guardian: target creature intercepts enemy effects targeting allies.

I like the "jam" idea too, although I'm not sure how it works thematically. Is it like jamming radar?
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blarg: