Constructed Design Theory [Part 1:Resilience]

[Rutarete]

Is this going to be based on the effector - spells/abilities - or effected -hp?

[OldTrees]

Is this going to be based on the effector - spells/abilities - or effected -hp?

effected [hp]

[jumpoffduck]

Even though HP is probably going to be the dominant factor here, attack also plays a part (as seen in the 0/10 example stated before).

Crimson dragon and horned frog both have the same amount of HP; however, a diamond shield essentially "removes" the frog from the game, whereas the crimson dragon still can do 9 damage per turn. This fits in with the original definition of resilience, since the shield ends the duration of the frog's effects.

[OldTrees]

Even though HP is probably going to be the dominant factor here, attack also plays a part (as seen in the 0/10 example stated before).

Crimson dragon and horned frog both have the same amount of HP; however, a diamond shield essentially "removes" the frog from the game, whereas the crimson dragon still can do 9 damage per turn. This fits in with the original definition of resilience, since the shield ends the duration of the frog's effects.

Correct we will get to observing the other effects on resilience after a few more posts like Gl1tch's on hp.

Once we have hp understood then we can go into non HP CC and even non creatures.

Also Resilience will only be 1 part of the final value equation. I will make another thread for the next topic when this is done/further along.

[az4rel]

ok, part 1 of my spread sheet  (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=tNn6j2JpVjqocgYt2z1dIVQ&authkey=CJSt5Hc#gid=0)is finished proving what Gl1tch said.
but i would leave the null point at 7-8 because of owlseye, upped oty , upped rage and maybe some poison spells and abilities and paradox.

now how to give a value to each hp amount?

[OldTrees]

ok, part 1 of my spread sheet  (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?hl=en&hl=en&key=tNn6j2JpVjqocgYt2z1dIVQ&authkey=CJSt5Hc#gid=0)is finished proving what Gl1tch said.
but i would leave the null point at 7-8 because of owlseye, upped oty , upped rage and maybe some poison spells and abilities and paradox.

now how to give a value to each hp amount?

To estimate the value of each hp amount just make an educated guess after setting an arbitrary hp as 1unit

For example

HP
0	Special Case
1	9/24|9/24
2	3/8|3/8
3	3/4|1/2
4	1|1
5	4/3|4/3
6	16/9|16/9

I guessed that each tier shift was a multiplier of 4/3 except the most important shifts 2.5|3.5 that were a multiplier of 2. This was using my poor guess work and Gl1tch's divisions. For HP 7+ I would prefer to get a sceond opinion from a Gravity expert to double check Gl1tch's wisdom. Gl1tch having been a Master of Life knows a lot about low hp from the Life creatures.

[Boingo]

I've always thought of HP as having a point of "null-neccessity", at around 6 HP.  Once a creature reaches 6 HP, the net gain in effectiveness of a card is approximately 0 as the HP increases.

How I came upon this conclusion:

CC can be sorted into tiers of how much damage it does.

The lowest tier is one dmaage, done by poison and fire shield.
Next is tier two, where only drain life, ice shield, and unupped otyugh deal exactly 2 damage.  This tier is the MOST IMPORTANT for unupgraded cards.  If a card only has 2 HP, it's worth is dramatically less than something with three HP.
Tier three is where firebolt lies.  I believe chaos seed deals 3.4 damage on average.  This tier is the MOST IMPORTANT for upgraded cards.  In the upgraded setting, the difference between 5 and 6 HP is innumerable.
Tier four is where upgraded otyugh and shockwave lie.
Tier five is for lightning bolt and rage potion.
And lastly, we arrive at tier 6.  There is no damage spell that does six damage.  Save cards like gravity pull and lobotomize, the target might as well have quintessence.  Any attempt at controlling it either requires saving up large amounts of quanta, or wasting two forms of CC.  In 90% of instances, it would be detrimental for the opponent to use spells to kill the creature.  Lobotomization, CC on a stick or reverse time are the better options.

Moving towards the stratosphere, you arrive at the tiers where voodoo doll, armagio, titan, and colossal dragon lie.  Marked only occasionally by the amount of quanta needed for a pump spell, these are the pointless areas, where only gravity pull has a use with the increased HP.  At 6 HP, adding one more point of HP no longer buffs the creature.

Some initial thoughts starting with a refinement of Gl1tch's post (which did a lot of heavy lifting for this thread):

1.  Ice shield does not do damage.  It removes attack ability (temporarily) for those with high enough attack to be affected but it does not actually affect hp.
2.  As for "tier 6": upped rage potion does 6 damage.  if a creature has 7 hp or more, it benefits from RP, if not it simply dies

Consider special situations:
     a.  freeze/shockwave:  essentially any targetable creature can be killed with this combo, independent of hp.  Ice shield now becomes a factor if attack >1 (2 for permafrost).
     b.  airborne/guard considerations:  guard will only lower hp if creature is not airborne.  Therefore airborne creatures might deserve some small token of added resilience.
     c.   phoenix:  the low hp is deceptive in these creatures.  They are the epitome of resilient as the can be "reborn" at very low cost.  Only liquid shadow, lobotomize + other CC or a large enough otyugh/scarab/mutant with devour (to eat the ash) can remove them from the game.

[az4rel]

maybe
 average turns in field ~  resilence aproach could be better
things like phoenix got low Hp but high resilense.

[OldTrees]

maybe
 average turns in field ~  resilence aproach could be better
things like phoenix got low Hp but high resilense.

This is already the case
Resilience is 1 of 3 large variables for my new constructed theory.

Each of these 3 large variables has both a primary definition and components

Resilience is the average duration of a card's effects per effect against an undefined competitive deck.

Resilience is made of many components
A) Resistance to Control
 a1) HP
 a2) means of attack (Immaterial, Momentum, Dark/Death, Water/Other)
 a3) Recovering (Heal, Growth, Ablaze, Steam, Rebirth ...)
B) Lasting Effects
 b1) Damage
 b2) Poison
 b3) Destruction (quanta, creatures, permanents)

However we always start with the easiest steps so we are currently analyzing HP's effect on resilience.

Since nobody has responded to my previous bait of a probably wrong relative Resilience based on hp I decided to try a better version to see if it agrees with the intuitions.

How does this look?

HP	Unupped Relative Resilience
1	.70
2	.85
3	.95
4	1
5	1.15
6	1.20
10	1.30
15	1.60

[az4rel]

How does this look?

HP	Unupped Relative Resilience
1	.70
2	.85
3	.95
4	1
5	1.15
6	1.20
10	1.30
15	1.60

I think the resilense shoul grow more on 6-7 hp as it can survibe much more than 4.

a graph resilience- hp would be losely like this https://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=1rRUARv0B8laXW87ibLxaO1dqNv4XAvskHrZ9Sl-pQJI lol.

[OldTrees]

I think the resilense shoul grow more on 6-7 hp as it can survibe much more than 4.

a graph resilience- hp would be losely like this https://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=1rRUARv0B8laXW87ibLxaO1dqNv4XAvskHrZ9Sl-pQJI lol.

The google doc is not public access. aka I can't see it.

I think you are right because those higher hp creatures I looked at had higher costs which decreases resilience (due to being played later.)

PS: This thread is related to Resilience. If anyone can answer my question and or offer assistance once the question is answered I would Greatly appreciate it.

[Rutarete]

Literally, what affects it. But that's already in the first post.
But what's really relevant to resilience is its' comparative worth. You can compare it to (broadly) games, ex. MTG, ETG, etc. Or on a different scale, compare it to current resilience, attack (in some ways the opposite of resilience), costs and more.
But even if everything had zero hp which is (ex.) worth a value of zero, they'd all still not be the same due to the other factors.
I'm not sure if this is relevant, but there's also the scale to consider. For example Yugioh is in the thousands while ETG is in the ones and tens.