Ask the Idea Guru

[esran]

12 ~= 7 quanta

the problem here is that as you increase the cost of an other card, each additional quanta is worthe much less. so for example, if you said that 6 other=3 of an element, 12 other would probably be 5 of the element, and 24 other would probably be 6 of the element. the reason is that cards like nova and supernova devalue large quantities of other becuase of rush potential. that is why no other card costs as much as 12.

[OldTrees]

Fishing for opinions.
I've been wondering for a while if anyone has ever attempted a animate shield.
I would have it be a  spell because it's thematically opposite of  .

I had an idea for a skill they might have that's kind of a combination of Guard and Gravity Pull.
It's "redirect next attack of target on this next turn". Obviously could shorten it for the card text.
The ability that sheild had would become a passive skill and effects would apply on attack.
I imagine they would all have a decent amount of HP, may or may not go for giving them attack.


Or, I could flip the whole idea around and figure ways to apply their abilities to attack effects, but that sounds like it could get complicated...

People have tried Flying Shields. The exemplar of the multiple shield genre is surprisingly not an animate card (the Armory card Dual Buckler).

Also search Royal Guard.

[furballdn]

Slightly more personal question. When looking at card ideas, are there any that make you instantly think "this is not a very good idea"? If so, what causes that and why? (not based on inbalance, but rather the concept)

[memimemi]

Oh wise Guru, I'd like your input on this (admittedly, very rough) concept, based on a mixture of opposing Elemental hate and synergy.  Oh, and super-high costs, because I think this game could use some huge power-bombs for endgames.

The basic mechanic, across all Elements, would be a permanent that a) costs ridiculous quanta (20+); and b) has an activated effect using the opposing Element's quanta.

Samples:

 : Aetherial Plane - 25 .  7  : Opponent cannot play any cards with  casting cost next turn.

 : Reality - 25 .  7 : Opponent cannot play any cards with  casting cost next turn.

. . . and so on.

Alternately, I was thinking of lowering the effect's cost, but adding the passive "Fragile: this permanent cannot be protected."

Anyways, to the best of your knowledge, is this an idea that's been persued before?  If not, is it one you think worth developing?  Are there any obvious, glaring faults that would wreck EtG if this were implemented?

Also:

 ???: Grey Area.  Both player's quanta pools are drained to 0.  Players cannot play Elemental spells.  Lasts 3 turns; Fragile.

I look forward to your input on this concept.

[OldTrees]

Slightly more personal question. When looking at card ideas, are there any that make you instantly think "this is not a very good idea"? If so, what causes that and why? (not based on inbalance, but rather the concept)

Yes there are.
I value balance, expanding the metagame, originality, simplicity, consistent theme, clarity and optional complexity.
I have 2 taboos. I feel it is unfair to punish players for their choice of element. I also feel a complete lockdown is not fun for the player locked down. (mere denial is not the same as a lockdown)

So I worry when I see:
Inherent imbalance (situational cards like Holy Light)
Shrinking the metagame
Redundant ideas (Horned Frog and rather than or Cockatrice)
Unnecessary complexity (when a simpler variant could exist)
Contradicting theme
Newb hating obscurity
Imposed complexity
Elemental Hate (Holy Light)
Lockdown (repeatable Silence ability)

Oh wise Guru, I'd like your input on this (admittedly, very rough) concept, based on a mixture of opposing Elemental hate and synergy.  Oh, and super-high costs, because I think this game could use some huge power-bombs for endgames.

The basic mechanic, across all Elements, would be a permanent that a) costs ridiculous quanta (20+); and b) has an activated effect using the opposing Element's quanta.

Samples:

 : Aetherial Plane - 25 .  7  : Opponent cannot play any cards with  casting cost next turn.

 : Reality - 25 .  7 : Opponent cannot play any cards with  casting cost next turn.

. . . and so on.

Alternately, I was thinking of lowering the effect's cost, but adding the passive "Fragile: this permanent cannot be protected."

Anyways, to the best of your knowledge, is this an idea that's been persued before?  If not, is it one you think worth developing?  Are there any obvious, glaring faults that would wreck EtG if this were implemented?

Also:

 ???: Grey Area.  Both player's quanta pools are drained to 0.  Players cannot play Elemental spells.  Lasts 3 turns; Fragile.

I look forward to your input on this concept.

It is wise for cards to have a low enough cost to be played before killed by a rush deck. 10 elemental quanta is high enough.

Punishing players for choosing Aether as their element of choice is Elemental Hate. Color Hate has had a net negative effect for Magic the Gathering.

[memimemi]

It is wise for cards to have a low enough cost to be played before killed by a rush deck. 10 elemental quanta is high enough.

Punishing players for choosing Aether as their element of choice is Elemental Hate. Color Hate has had a net negative effect for Magic the Gathering.

I'm not sure if comparing to Magic is quite fair, but if we were to, I'd say that the net negative (and reason I stopped playing years ago) lies in having too many cruddy, slapped together cards, not from any specific colour hate.  Various "protection from" mechanics kept the game fresh, and provided answers to the more commonly used OP rares in any tournament metagame.  Also, in that other game, there are only 5 colours (plus other) - for any one colour, there are 2 others that you're built to hate.

This idea hit me when facing (yet another) Chrysora/Arsenic build in the Arena.  If a Silence effect is too hate-y (it's a word now, darn it!), what about just using the natural counters each Element's theme suggests?

  Dawn - Vampiric abilities do you no damage/ Dusk -(insert idea here -  is kinda weak already);

  Vaccine - You and all your creatures are immune to further Poisoning/ Deadly Bonds - Opponent gets 1 Poison counter for every creature he has in play;

etc.

I notice that my first posted conceptualization of this hit at least 2 of your hot-buttons (Elemental hate; Lockdown).  Do you think that revamping the idea in this way would be more acceptable?  After all, if nothing else, it would add to the metagame (players would have to de-focus their decks a little - a Poisonstall would have to pack at least a few creatures, just in case of Vaccine).

Or, perhaps, I should just scrap it - or throw it into the "Steal My Idea" thread, for better minds to chew on?

[eaglgenes101]

There are ways of working around silence not involving Sanct. You can't say similar things for some of the cards you proposed.

[esran]

memimemi
the reason elemental hate sucks is because there are 12 elements. if a card hates on an element, it means 2 things.
1. if your opponent isnt that element the card sucks.
2. if your opponent is that element then the card is OP.
so unless you want every match to be decided by the RNG, elemental hate is stupid.
sorry to answer someones question in your thread idea guru. i just want to give me 2

[OldTrees]

It is wise for cards to have a low enough cost to be played before killed by a rush deck. 10 elemental quanta is high enough.

Punishing players for choosing Aether as their element of choice is Elemental Hate. Color Hate has had a net negative effect for Magic the Gathering.

I'm not sure if comparing to Magic is quite fair, but if we were to, I'd say that the net negative (and reason I stopped playing years ago) lies in having too many cruddy, slapped together cards, not from any specific colour hate.  Various "protection from" mechanics kept the game fresh, and provided answers to the more commonly used OP rares in any tournament metagame.  Also, in that other game, there are only 5 colours (plus other) - for any one colour, there are 2 others that you're built to hate.
"Color Hate was a net negative for MtG" is not a claim that the greatest flaw with MtG was Color Hate. It is the claim that MtG would have been better without Color Hate.
To be clear, the Elemental Hate of your idea was that it would lock down a single predetermined element and have no effect on other elements.

This idea hit me when facing (yet another) Chrysora/Arsenic build in the Arena.  If a Silence effect is too hate-y (it's a word now, darn it!), what about just using the natural counters each Element's theme suggests?

  Dawn - Vampiric abilities do you no damage/ Dusk -(insert idea here -  is kinda weak already);

  Vaccine - You and all your creatures are immune to further Poisoning/ Deadly Bonds - Opponent gets 1 Poison counter for every creature he has in play;

etc.

I notice that my first posted conceptualization of this hit at least 2 of your hot-buttons (Elemental hate; Lockdown).  Do you think that revamping the idea in this way would be more acceptable?  After all, if nothing else, it would add to the metagame (players would have to de-focus their decks a little - a Poisonstall would have to pack at least a few creatures, just in case of Vaccine).

Or, perhaps, I should just scrap it - or throw it into the "Steal My Idea" thread, for better minds to chew on?

Your modifications are IMHO* improvements. However I would suggest increasing the scope of each card. Have each card counter a large genre that is primarily in the opposed element but still has significant presence outside that element. See Sanctuary as an example of a non Elemental Hate version of opposition.
*Those 2 personal taboos are merely opinions based on my tastes. They are in a much less significant category compared to the rest of the list.

[memimemi]

Your modifications are IMHO* improvements. However I would suggest increasing the scope of each card. Have each card counter a large genre that is primarily in the opposed element but still has significant presence outside that element. See Sanctuary as an example of a non Elemental Hate version of opposition.
*Those 2 personal taboos are merely opinions based on my tastes. They are in a much less significant category compared to the rest of the list.

Okay, thank you.  I think, over the next week or so, I'll flesh these out a little, until there's a set of postable cards.  Thanks for the input!

[Zaealix]

@esran
I believe it's been stated by OldTrees that others commenting on ideas presented for him to critque is allowed, and possibly encouraged.

@OldTrees
In lieu of Santuary's becoming a counter to dissapation shield, do you think  could use a new shield, or no?

[Annele]

If we are allowed to comment on other's ideas, I would just like to say that:

Dawn - Vampiric abilities do you no damage/ Dusk -(insert idea here -  is kinda weak already)

is still a bit too much elemental hate imho, but

Vaccine - You and all your creatures are immune to further Poisoning/ Deadly Bonds - Opponent gets 1 Poison counter for every creature he has in play;

are both great, and when developed could be terrific card ideas.
Just my 2 .
(Also, I would be happy to steal it from you, but it's such a good idea you'll probably want to keep it for yourself.)